Can’t let go of my childhood dream of getting into Oxford

[wannabeOxonian]

I had a childhood dream to attend Oxford University. The dream has been reignited again and I am looking for ways to gain a place at Oxford University.

My GCSE grades were quite good 12 A*/A but the issue is I started experiencing mental ill health problems during sixth form so my A-levels are mediocre plus I only have two A-levels because that’s all I could manage at the time.

I didn’t apply to Oxford during sixth form because I was worried my grades were mediocre so I ended up applying for any course I could find. I was accepted to a Russell Group university but I didn’t really like my time there and I didn’t like my degree very much so I scraped a 2:2 in the end because thankfully my final year was a 2:1 overall (65%) but my second year was horrific. This is now ten years ago.

I recently finished a masters degree at a good Russell Group university and had a merit, one percent off a distinction (69%). I am now looking to start a PhD in my field at a good university.

Wondering if it would be worth applying for Oxford and fulfilling my childhood dream at this point in my life?

Am I too old? Will my poor academic performance in sixth form and during my undergrad work against me, even with a PhD? I also haven’t published anything yet so I’m not exactly Oxford academic calibre right now. I feel insecure but I know I’ll regret it forever if I don’t fulfil my childhood ambition. Like I can imagine myself in my 80s regretting not going after what I wanted. Thoughts? Advice? Am I being silly?

For people wondering what I want to apply for, there’s a particular degree course that I’ve always wanted to study at Oxford. I’m not going to say what it is because I’ve shared too much here already in this post.

@SonicBroom

OP have you appealed your Master’s result? It would be quite unusual not to get a distinction with 69%, I think most places allow you a 2% leeway as long as 50% of your credits or more are above 70%. The reason is it stops one bad grade bringing you down. If you don’t qualify for that (more than half your grades are not above 70%) then it will only ever merit a merit if you see what I’m mean. I could be wrong but that would be my assumption.

I applied for an RA role at Oxford last year and didn’t get it because, even though they said that they were happy to hire someone directly from qualification, it went in the end to someone who was experienced.

My advice would be:

1. if you’re going straight into a phd then make sure it follows on from something you’ve studied in depth all ready. Don’t start afresh with new subject.
2. gain some experience if you can to htppnyou decide it’s the right thing

Btw… how are you paying for all these study years and is there a job at the end of them??

Good advice. Thank you

As for how I’m paying: student loans + a bit of help from family + me supporting myself by working while studying. This is how I got through this financially

DH was considering this at Oxford for an PHD he wanted to do (which he ultimately decided against). He has a 1st but it’s from a different country so the percentage is low in comparison to his peers though he is highly regarded in his field and fully qualified. They bent over backwards to help him with the application and provided him a plan of activities he needed to do to ensure his application was successful. He had to take 1-2 masters level courses to prove his academic ability, network with existing professors and researchers, and wrangle his name as co-author for papers which would have been the easy bit as his company sponsors a lot of the research in his field and putting his name on the paper would have made their work even more attractive.

Unfortunately for him it was the workload and inflexibility of everything (eg tutor appointments had to be in person during 9-3 and couldn’t be completed via teams, he had to base his lab onsite even though he has access to his company’s, and they were trying to strong arm him into lecturing for what was essentially peanuts compared to what they would have paid had he not been a phd student.

Be aware that Oxford isn't as wonderful as you might imagine. The buildings are pretty but it's still extremely elitist and they don't make it at all easy for students who need to work to support themselves. They're good at tokenism but actually it's still extremely traditional in many ways. Obviously it totally depends on the college, course etc but I know several people who didn't enjoy it there and a couple who really hated it. Luckily the current VC is leaving soon so who knows, things may improve! You're certainly not too old though - learning is a lifelong pursuit! When I did my PhD I was in my 30s and probably slightly younger than average in my cohort (there were several in their 50s/60s). PPs are right about needing to identify the supervisor(s) you want and come up with a strong proposal. Good luck!

@Dwebbles21

I'm currently studying and the criteria to get into PhD is strict.

You're looking at a strong 1st at UG study and a distinction at PG level. In addition, they looking for any academic prizes that you have won whilst studying. Plus, they'll look at how strong is your research proposal and will you be contributing to academic knowledge.

Did you do well on any dissertations you might have done for UG and PG? That's a form of independent research.

Ah so dissertations count as research projects?

@user1473878824 I want both those things

Yes, they're an independent research project! You have to create a research proposal, go through an ethics procedure and then write it!

If you got a really good grade on that when you did masters and got a distinction in that could work in your favour.

I forgot to mention that you learn basic research skills and you use these skills to do the research and then write up the findings.

Sure but isn’t it more important to do your PhD rather than HAVING to do it at Oxford? I know quite a few people who went to Oxford and it’s just… a uni. I don’t think focusing on it because you think it’s the environment you want to be in etc is the way to think about it.

OP, what field, even vaguely — sciences/humanities? I did my doctorate (DPhil at Oxford, remember, not a PhD) at Oxford in a humanities subject, and was awarded an international scholarship to cover fees and living expenses off the back of my application — I had a double first at UG, several UG scholarships and prizes and a national award for my MA dissertation (which was on a related topic to my doctoral proposal) and excellent references.

I don’t think you sound that committed to research, to be honest — maybe I’m wrong. You sound like a few graduate students at my college who’d failed to get in as undergraduates and were living out belated Brideshead fantasies as postgrads. If what you really want is to fulfil a childhood dream rather than the brutal hard work of doctoral research — and it sounds as though it is — I would investigate easier ways of doing it via Continuing Education or summer schools.

I’m an Oxford graduate. Apply and you might get in, but it isn’t all that special.

@Peppercorn9

Be aware that Oxford isn't as wonderful as you might imagine. The buildings are pretty but it's still extremely elitist and they don't make it at all easy for students who need to work to support themselves. They're good at tokenism but actually it's still extremely traditional in many ways. Obviously it totally depends on the college, course etc but I know several people who didn't enjoy it there and a couple who really hated it. Luckily the current VC is leaving soon so who knows, things may improve! You're certainly not too old though - learning is a lifelong pursuit! When I did my PhD I was in my 30s and probably slightly younger than average in my cohort (there were several in their 50s/60s). PPs are right about needing to identify the supervisor(s) you want and come up with a strong proposal. Good luck!

Thank you for the information about Oxford

I got a fantastic first at an RG university and didn’t get onto the MA at Oxford. I did my MA at the RG uni and received the highest grade in the year so was awarded PhD funding. Am now in a permanent post and finally have been promoted (Covid halted much of that).

You could do a summer school at Oxford and you might be able to do a second MA, but would depend on discipline and strength of your dissertation proposal, as well as how great a reference you could get from as senior an academic as you can from your most recent programme.

OP I was just thinking, did you try to get your masters dissertation published? What did you get on your dissertation? If you got a good distinction on it but not enough to take you over the distinction threshold overall then it might be important to bring that out.

Lots of people do publish at masters level, I was asked to try to get mine published but I just didn’t have time. I got 89% on my dissertation from a top London RG uni, and 82% on my masters overall (during Covid… and still didn’t get through the application stage for RA at Oxford or for PhD at UCL!!). Perhaps that’s something to work on with your dissertation supervisor if you do want another credential under your belt. They’ll gladly help in return for acknowledgment as a co-author. If your masters dissertation is not of distinction level and ideally of publishable standard (85-90%) then you need to rethink whether this is right for you.

What have your uni (for masters) said about it, you’d need a reference from them to support your application?

Also, most people only really go through with a phd if they’re interested in a career in academia, or perhaps if they’re in a STEM or clinical field. Outside those areas it doesn’t really add much to your value in the job market as essentially you’re learning research skills, and becoming an SME in a very niche subject.

@titchy

And yet it's still not clear whether you want Oxford or the PhD..... Frankly you don't stand a cats chance in hell of an Oxford PhD. And your mindset is just wrong.

Exactly! I just don't think that OP's being realistic at all

Someone might know better than me but from my brief foray into possibility of PhD you need to be getting 80+ in your Masters to know it’s a good choice for you. As I mentioned, I did and my lecturers all encouraged me to do PhD. I don’t want to though as personally I feel industry experience is more valuable in my case.

Also, it’s sometimes difficult to situate where your level is. Even with my grades I didn’t get the overall prize, or the dissertation prize. There was someone / were people better than me (course of around 80), so that gives you a good idea of where the top scores are.

@Mittenmob

I wouldnt take a 2:2 and merit student on for a PhD (Russell group uni) unless they had something afterwards that demonstrated they had excellent critical thinking and writing skills. They would also need something extra like fantastic access to a niche dataset.

Yep ... you would have to have something that showed real brilliance with regards to your PhD field of study. Something so strong it puts the A levels, 2:2 and merit in the shadows.

I have to say that the picture is of a struggle. Each time something wasn't quite right and that was reflected in your results. The merit is of course very good and well done 🙏 ... but in applying to Oxford, you'll be putting yourself in a field where many have top distinctions, academic prizes, etc.

To me it feels like you're putting pressure on yourself which is based on a strange conviction that Oxford is the be all and end all. It isn't, of course. You are. You create each day and you choose how to follow your passions and achieve something tangible and satisfying. If you put yourself in a context where you are not quite as 'good' as some others, you'll feel bad. Maybe consider doing something in the real world rather than studying, to achieve something fantastic? Then you can go back to Oxford with that, although by that point you may realise it feels great to be achieving, and you don't need to study more. It's hard to advise you without knowing the subject area.

You could do a course of courses at the Oxford Department for Continuing Education if you wanted - that's a way to engage with something at Oxford. Some other poster said she did a few courses with them. Then opportunities and connections may arise.

Personally I think you should think very hard about what you actually want to achieve.

Maybe consider a PGCE which is less competitive.

Hey OP - I think childhood dreams are exactly that - childhood dreams! They make us think of a happier future and give us impetus to grow and be independent but they are not a reliable life map!

My first childhood dream (I would not admit to anyone): TV star. I liked sparkly costumes and the occasional performance. Soon realised I disliked singing and dancing and liked books a lot more so

dream no. 2: university professor. That lasted a bit longer, through my undergrad, masters and PhD and was at the postdoc stage that realised that I got really bored teaching, wanted a personal life outside the office, wanted stability, better pay, in short that neoliberal academia wasn't really for me. I happily waved goodbye to that dream.

Do I feel a failure for having let the dream of professorship go without having achieved it? No. I have looked at the reality of it and realised that it had no resemblance with the fantasy I had formed in my head in the 90s.

So now I work in publishing, my research is professional, to build strategies for my own field, I take an active role in the production of knowledge with conditions that match better my life values. And I get to perform when I give presentations!

Think about what you truly like about this Oxford dream - maybe you just like Oxford and live in Oxford?

Or do you dream of a secluded life of knowledge?

Or would you like the chance to really think critically around a problem, an issue that you think has been so far overlooked?

Are you looking for some recognition of your value?

There is so much you can do, and I truly wish you all the best to be the wonderful you that you deserve to be, but I believe that to do so you need to really analyse, deeply and sincerely and with all your brain cells on, what the shorthand 'Oxford' means to you.

So what would you suggest? That I try to work with a group in a discipline that I intend to do the PhD? I’m not sure how to become a more competitive applicant.

Okay I hope this is helpful - Relevant to Scientific degrees, unsure how relevant to humanities edited by MNHQ at OP's request
Work experience in the field that you want to do a PhD in would definitely make you more competitive. Showing that you understand the literature (and techniques if there are any-I'm unclear on the discipline your aiming for) is extremely important and they will expect you to discuss the literature in an interview and have some ideas of your own that you can explain logically in the context of the literature and it's relevance or 'usefulness'. A research assistant position or similar for at least a year would really help especially if you made it on to a paper or two. Also knowing people in the field can get you a great reference or make an introduction - research is so niche researchers in a given field all tend to either know each other or know of each other so a name and reference would benefit you massively. Be aware of big relevant conferences as well.

Many MRes students that apply for PhDs have their names on papers or have already worked or gotten to know the Supervisor so be wary of that. One way in is to study an MRes with the Supervisor you want and then they offer you a PhD once you've shown some potential. A few people on here have said that they will take in to account your previous MH struggles - some might but honestly, most wont unless they know you personally, especially somewhere like Oxford. People in academia don't rise through the ranks because they're good managers or they care about people, they make it because they're ruthless (they can be nice people at the same time but essentially. ruthless) so don't count on anyone making allowances for you and be ready for it. Particularly as many people in academia have MH struggles and are still expected to be brilliant, they'll be sympathetic but if you say you can't perform because of MH they wont trust you with their time or grant money. Be honest with yourself on whether you think you can handle it, its not an easy life. I know the basic entry requirements seem reasonable but take in to account that the applicants will be going above and beyond to make themselves stand out, so you need to do that too, particularly as you cant lean on your academic performance. You might not need a paper in the requirements, but applicants will have them and they'll have 1sts, distinctions, work experience, maybe a paper so the bare minimum is not enough.

My sister did a DPhil at Oxford. They wouldn't allow their doctorate students to work (or strongly discouraged it). She got a 2:1 and hadn't published, but she applied at 40 and had years of experience in the field. She also applied from abroad to a mostly foreign students college and thinks that the bar to get in was lower (as obviously foreign students pay more). It still took a long long time (7 years in the end) and took a huge toll on her mental health. Not worth it for the kudos IMO.

WellLarDeDar, yours is a very useful and helpful post if the OP wants to do a doctorate in the sciences, I don't think it's appropriate for Humanities of Social Science, where 'research assistants' do not really exist. Any research-based role in these fields is postdoc and fiercely, fiercely competitive. So your post could actually be misleading, even if it comes from a good place of wanting to help.

If the OP really wants to do a PhD, as many have suggested, is looking at it from an unusual viewpoint, focusing on the place to study rather than the discipline, and it's really hard to give PhD advice that it's not only discipline specific but subject specific.

I think the OP should give us some indication of their chosen field, so that the ones of us who have experience there can give more specific help.

I think it varies by discipline, but PhDs are incredibly competitive, especially funded ones. Despite a distinction in my MSc, relevant work experience and prizes, at least one uni rejected my PhD application because I got a 2:1 at undergrad. Just their criteria.

In terms of making yourself a more competitive candidate, some things I did were:
Summer schools in my subject area. Good places to learn and to network
Work experience in the field. Entry level but good experience. I also did some voluntary work in a similar field.
Internships at uni. I did one paid and one voluntary during and after my MSc. I got research experience and staff were happy to have help on various projects and papers.
Research assistant job. I took a 6 month job away from home to get experience and publications. It was invaluable and a great experience.
Conferences. Great for networking, getting your name out there and poster or oral presentation experience.

I love my subject area and what I do, so most of these didn't feel like an effort, just things I really wanted to do! Sorry for the waffle.

Seconding MadDeleine - this is very dependent on the subject, which I don’t think the OP has said. There are no such things as research assistants in the humanities and social sciences; the only route to getting a PhD place is application, and funding is so scarce that only the most competitive candidates succeed, and then sometimes not even then (I’ve known students who’ve come top of their year at Oxbridge to not get funded places).

It would also be pretty unheard of for anyone at that stage to be publishing papers or articles - the training to do so is part of the PhD.

So a lot of this advice really needs to be tailored to the specific subject.

OP has mentioned research assistant jobs in a previous post so I guess made the assumption. At the very least, relevant work experience, being able to discuss the literature and relevance of research ideas, doing an MRes with a supervisor, exposure to the research community and a paper will still make an applicant more competitive regardless of the discipline. Techniques aren't necessarily laboratory based either, that includes data analysis, gathering, methods of studying, paradigms etc. I appreciate your point that my post is in the context of a scientific degree though, some of it is still transferable.

Sounds like it’s to say ‘I’ve studied at Oxford’ . Some people want the prestige that would go with that but in the real world, no one would give a shit.

I can understand an undergraduate wanting to study at Oxbridge as it does have prestige and perhaps would open more doors, simply on the back of having studied at the institution.

A post graduate degree doesn’t hold the same prestige as an undergrad degree from such places, so if that’s your reasoning, I think you’ve missed the boat

I don’t think any of the things you’ve mentioned would be relevant to the humanities - there isn’t any related work experience and applicant could do, and we don’t care what work experience they have when assessing the application. It would equally be rare for applicants to have attended any conferences - they are expensive, and we wouldn’t care anyway.
The assessment of PhD applications is done on the qualifications and the research proposal, plus the quality of the references.