Can’t let go of my childhood dream of getting into Oxford

[wannabeOxonian]

I had a childhood dream to attend Oxford University. The dream has been reignited again and I am looking for ways to gain a place at Oxford University.

My GCSE grades were quite good 12 A*/A but the issue is I started experiencing mental ill health problems during sixth form so my A-levels are mediocre plus I only have two A-levels because that’s all I could manage at the time.

I didn’t apply to Oxford during sixth form because I was worried my grades were mediocre so I ended up applying for any course I could find. I was accepted to a Russell Group university but I didn’t really like my time there and I didn’t like my degree very much so I scraped a 2:2 in the end because thankfully my final year was a 2:1 overall (65%) but my second year was horrific. This is now ten years ago.

I recently finished a masters degree at a good Russell Group university and had a merit, one percent off a distinction (69%). I am now looking to start a PhD in my field at a good university.

Wondering if it would be worth applying for Oxford and fulfilling my childhood dream at this point in my life?

Am I too old? Will my poor academic performance in sixth form and during my undergrad work against me, even with a PhD? I also haven’t published anything yet so I’m not exactly Oxford academic calibre right now. I feel insecure but I know I’ll regret it forever if I don’t fulfil my childhood ambition. Like I can imagine myself in my 80s regretting not going after what I wanted. Thoughts? Advice? Am I being silly?

For people wondering what I want to apply for, there’s a particular degree course that I’ve always wanted to study at Oxford. I’m not going to say what it is because I’ve shared too much here already in this post.

Sounds like you're more interested in attending Oxford for the sake of it? For status? Why did you not enjoy your time doing your undergrad at a Russell Group uni? Do you think Oxford would be a cultural fit for you?

@WellLarDeDar

I'll be honest. A 2.2 and Merit will not make you competitive. Unless you've worked in industry or with another group on a related discipline, and got a paper out .... there are going to be insanely competitive applicants. You seem to care more about the university being Oxford than the actual PhD itself which is the wrong attitude. PhDs are a lot of effort and a long commitment. Being able to tell people you 'go to Oxford' wont motivate you for more than a few months and is the wrong reason to do a PhD there.

So what would you suggest? That I try to work with a group in a discipline that I intend to do the PhD? I’m not sure how to become a more competitive applicant.

@littlepieces

Sounds like you're more interested in attending Oxford for the sake of it? For status? Why did you not enjoy your time doing your undergrad at a Russell Group uni? Do you think Oxford would be a cultural fit for you?

In terms of whether I believe Oxford would be a cultural fit for me. Yes I do. More so than the university where I completed my undergraduate degree. That’s my main attraction to Oxford. I know lots of current and former students, I feel it would be a great fit for me.

@BarkminsterBlue

Are you the same poster who was fixated on achieving a First?

No

Why has this 'childhood dream' been 'reignited' ? Why exactly are you obsessed with going there?
I think you need to move on, OP.

Ok, so basically you're always judged on your last set of exam results/ job, so I'd say it's unlikely you'll go to Oxford now, sorry

@Mama1980

Honestly no one is going to care about your A levels at this point. I'm going to be honest though and say a 2:2 and merit isn't going to get you to the top of the pile. Having said that topic is key for a phd, do you have a particular one in mind, have you approached a supervisor in your field at Oxford to discuss your chances? If not I'd advise doing that, they will be able to help you.

@titchy @Mama1980 I agree with both of you that 2:2 and a Merit are not exactly “top of the pile” (although I was personally pleased with them considering … ). I kind of know that I’m likely to succeed when competing with people with top degrees from top institutions. Or people with lots and lots of industry experience and have already been involved with major research projects with top research groups.

With that being said, there has to be something I could do to increase my chances of application success. Right?

@Mittenmob

I wouldnt take a 2:2 and merit student on for a PhD (Russell group uni) unless they had something afterwards that demonstrated they had excellent critical thinking and writing skills. They would also need something extra like fantastic access to a niche dataset.

Ok, so how could I demonstrate my critical thinking and writing skills to potential supervisors. I definitely don’t have access to a niche dataset so that’s out. Suggestions?

Ok, so how could I demonstrate my critical thinking and writing skills to potential supervisors. I definitely don’t have access to a niche dataset so that’s out. Suggestions?

Seriously, if you have to ask this on MN then you are not cut out for academic life in Oxford at all. You need more drive, more independent critical thinking, more self-directed output.

well read loads around your field ,and come up with a new proposal for research that need doing or that suggests some interesting new ideas - which is basically what everyone does when they apply ,and then spends their first year refining. What are you intending to research? What ideas have you got about it already? Who else researches it? Have you read all their work? What ideas have you got for how you'd come up with the data/ideas? You have to work most of that out yourself, and the supervisor is just going to guide the process and give advice. You need to go with a decent proposal, and convince them that it's worth them giving up time ,resources, office/lab space, emotional investment, etc in you doing this project, as it will partly reflect on them a bit too. What funding bodies have you looked at - you need to convince them, too, and if you have convinced them, it's easier for you to get a supervisor as well.

@valadon68

Congrats on your merit! That's great.

To be honest, I think it really depends on the subject. Have you thought about doing an MPhil (many self-fund)? It's a fairly uncommon, two year degree. A lot of competition is removed at this level, because the fees are prohibitive if you don't get some pretty generous funding, so you're often evaluated according to the entry requirements rather than whether you can beat the top level of insanely accomplished applicants (as at undergrad). That won't be true for every subject, but it will for some (also, I hate to say it, not wanting to minimise anyone's achievements, but Oxford, like most other unis, is not averse to offering cash cows). But anyway, my point is that an MPhil will get you on the first rung of the ladder, get you into that pool of potential contacts, and you'd be in a stronger position to apply for a PhD (and the second, research year could replace the first PhD year). Plus there is often a lot of freedom during the MPhil to look around and see what you like, change course etc.

Oxford is a magical place and I can understand why you'd want to go there. You don't have to share, but is there a specific reason that you think it would suit your needs best, other than the employment prospects and general prestige? I'm not dismissing the attraction of those things, but for example, I did my postgrad there because I liked the programme and wanted to work with one particular person. And also because it would look good on my CV, not gonna lie. Why don't you get in touch with someone who's working in your field and have a chat about your research plans?

Thanks! I was pretty pleased to get a Merit (and several Distinctions in my masters degree). An MPhil seems like it would be a good choice for me before jumping straight into a PhD. By talking to someone in my field about my research plans, do you mean approaching academics who are working on the kind of topics I’m interested in then asking to work in their group before applying for a PhD? Like a research assistant position? Does that work?

@lunarlandscape

Ok, so how could I demonstrate my critical thinking and writing skills to potential supervisors. I definitely don’t have access to a niche dataset so that’s out. Suggestions?

Seriously, if you have to ask this on MN then you are not cut out for academic life in Oxford at all. You need more drive, more independent critical thinking, more self-directed output.

There are a number of people here on MN who have extensive experience in research and academia. I don’t see tha harm in asking tbh. People ask for advice and input for a wide range of topics here, I don’t see an issue with jr

agreeing with lunarlandscape here.

Your CV will be looked at as a whole and they want to see that you can think independently and critically, that you are driven by research, and that your achievements have developed organically because you were interested in XYZ and went out and did it. If you don't have that CV, then you're not a strong candidate.

There are two routes to doing a DPhil: 1) proceed through BA/MPhil/DPhil consecutively, or 2) after graduation go out into industry, collect experience and knowledge, achieve things - become a candidate with unique skills, expertise and ideas that would be valuable to your field of research.

You can't just dress up your CV and hope they don't notice that it's mediocre.

Just tell them you got a first. Job done.

And yet it's still not clear whether you want Oxford or the PhD..... Frankly you don't stand a cats chance in hell of an Oxford PhD. And your mindset is just wrong.

What's the end goal after the PhD from Oxford? What do you think it would do for your career?

For any PhD place, it really helps to make sure you're the right fit for a particular supervisor. You need an area of research about which you care enough to dedicate several years of your life to it, and you need a supervisor for whom this area is a natural fit. So before qualifications come under consideration, the first question should be: in which area do I want to do my research, and is there a scholar at Oxford who would be a good fit for this area? I know that if a prospective student approaches me with a proposal, then I am far more interested in the proposal, and how it's written, than I am in any academic transcript. I don't think that your results to date would necessarily present any barrier, if you can get a prospecitve supervisor onside to support your application. But to do that, you need a solid idea of why that particular supervisor is the right one for your project. There's nothing wrong with approaching potential supervisors with an idea, provided the idea isn't totally vague. I don't like being bombarded with random emails from randomers that don't know my research, but if someone writes and says, "I am interested to study with you because your expertise in X lines up with my proposed area of research in Y ways", then I will give the proposal serious consideration, no matter the grades on previous degrees.

OP have you appealed your Master’s result? It would be quite unusual not to get a distinction with 69%, I think most places allow you a 2% leeway as long as 50% of your credits or more are above 70%. The reason is it stops one bad grade bringing you down. If you don’t qualify for that (more than half your grades are not above 70%) then it will only ever merit a merit if you see what I’m mean. I could be wrong but that would be my assumption.

I applied for an RA role at Oxford last year and didn’t get it because, even though they said that they were happy to hire someone directly from qualification, it went in the end to someone who was experienced.

My advice would be:

1. if you’re going straight into a phd then make sure it follows on from something you’ve studied in depth all ready. Don’t start afresh with new subject.
2. gain some experience if you can to htppnyou decide it’s the right thing

Btw… how are you paying for all these study years and is there a job at the end of them??

Bye I was also turned down from a phd at UCL because someone else had more experience than me so it does count

You need to be an RA with your background. Go and work for the PIs at Oxford that you want to work with. That’s your best bet at securing a PhD.
Funded academia is cut throat - and honestly everyone I know (including me) got the PhD place after the PI of the grant knows you already. Which is hideously unfair but that’s how it is.
It makes sense, I’ve had some shocking undergrad students in my lab despite them being brilliant on paper. I’d never take on a PhD student without knowing them first.

I'm currently studying and the criteria to get into PhD is strict.

You're looking at a strong 1st at UG study and a distinction at PG level. In addition, they looking for any academic prizes that you have won whilst studying. Plus, they'll look at how strong is your research proposal and will you be contributing to academic knowledge.

Did you do well on any dissertations you might have done for UG and PG? That's a form of independent research.

@Trivium4all

For any PhD place, it really helps to make sure you're the right fit for a particular supervisor. You need an area of research about which you care enough to dedicate several years of your life to it, and you need a supervisor for whom this area is a natural fit. So before qualifications come under consideration, the first question should be: in which area do I want to do my research, and is there a scholar at Oxford who would be a good fit for this area? I know that if a prospective student approaches me with a proposal, then I am far more interested in the proposal, and how it's written, than I am in any academic transcript. I don't think that your results to date would necessarily present any barrier, if you can get a prospecitve supervisor onside to support your application. But to do that, you need a solid idea of why that particular supervisor is the right one for your project. There's nothing wrong with approaching potential supervisors with an idea, provided the idea isn't totally vague. I don't like being bombarded with random emails from randomers that don't know my research, but if someone writes and says, "I am interested to study with you because your expertise in X lines up with my proposed area of research in Y ways", then I will give the proposal serious consideration, no matter the grades on previous degrees.

This is actually helpful. Thank you

Talk to Oxford University! Look at their website, go to an open day, I think they do virtual ones, find someone who can talk you through what the posiblities are for your course.

OP are you actually just desperate to do your PhD or just go to Oxford? Because if it’s the latter in all honesty it doesn’t seem very healthy.

@lunarlandscape

Ok, so how could I demonstrate my critical thinking and writing skills to potential supervisors. I definitely don’t have access to a niche dataset so that’s out. Suggestions?

Seriously, if you have to ask this on MN then you are not cut out for academic life in Oxford at all. You need more drive, more independent critical thinking, more self-directed output.

Your critical thinking and research skills are demonstrated by your academic record. Your academic record consists of 2 A Levels, a 2:2 and a merit in your masters. As the previous poster says, if you have to ask this question you've disqualified yourself. Ditto if you have to ask how to approach supervisors. If you were PhD material your masters tutors would have invited you to consider it. And I'm wondering why you didn't get a distinction if your grade average was 69%. On my masters a distinction could be awarded in those circumstances and lots of allowances have been made during the covid era. Did you even get a distinction in your dissertation?

Preparing a research proposal takes months of hard work. Have you been reading widely, attending conferences, looking for opportunities to present and write about your work, doing additional training, discussing your ideas with potential supervisors?

Surely you can see that you aren't Oxford material. You may think you're a good fit but the decision isn't up to you.