To change careers and become a doctor at 39?

[ValleyOfTheTramadols]

Just that really. I have a degree and a masters in humanities and history respectively but have always been interested in science and medicine as well. My masters specialised in medical history. I’ve spent a lot of time in hospital with my son recently and I have developed a strong urge/feeling/calling to retrain in medicine. I would have to sit A levels in two science subjects before applying to a medical course but I could do that in a year. Then with the six year medical degree and first foundation year I could be a ‘full’ doctor by the age of 47. Nearly 20 years or more left of a career by then. I only recently completed my masters so I’m used to intense study as an adult and I can afford it financially. But am I just deluded?

@MrsFin

While training they are paid as trainees £35-38K To be fair, not many trainees get paid as much as that. That's quite a way above the national average salary.

i think "trainee" is a bit misleading. This is someone who had likely done at least 5 years for their medical degree (potentially intercalated or done a masters or PHD) and then 2 years foundation before they reach training. Some trainees have been working as doctors for 10+ years

@forinborin

‘Minimum’ time to independent practice (consultant or gp) would be 5 years after finishing med school if you choose GP track. I thought GPs can go into GP practice pretty much after FY2, and are on quite good money (60K+) from the start?

GP training is another 3 years after F2, usually 18/24months further work as a hospital doctor then another year as a GP registrar. Only then fully qualified GP on GP salary.

Look into physician associate, quicker, higher pay to start with and might be what you’re looking for.

@forinborin

NHS bursaries absolutely screwed me at the time.
For the undergraduate rather than graduate entry degree you only got fees paid for 5th year.
Because you were entitled to a bursary your loan was slashed in half but you didn’t necessarily get a bursary.
My parents both worked min wage jobs but that meant I wasn’t entitled to a bursary!
I had £1500 to live on for a year and my first placement of the year I had to take a four hour round bus trip costing £10 a day.
I graduated with over £40k debt and that was before £9k fees.

Came on here to suggest Physician’s Associate and see PP has mentioned it. It’s a role that is going to come to the fore in the future.

I know someone who did this. They have a wealthy husband and a nanny and they’re lovely but I’d not do it if you don’t have either financial resources or social ones to invest in supporting you and your DC.

[quote Jobennna]@forinborin

NHS bursaries absolutely screwed me at the time.
For the undergraduate rather than graduate entry degree you only got fees paid for 5th year.
Because you were entitled to a bursary your loan was slashed in half but you didn’t necessarily get a bursary.
My parents both worked min wage jobs but that meant I wasn’t entitled to a bursary!
I had £1500 to live on for a year and my first placement of the year I had to take a four hour round bus trip costing £10 a day.
I graduated with over £40k debt and that was before £9k fees.[/quote]
I know a graduate entry student (mature, way older than the OP). Their tuition fees are paid from the second year and I think that they get a bursary for living costs too, albeit modest (something like 4K a year?)

But as PP rightfully said there's also other living costs that can add to the debt.

Agree about trainee being misleading!
Technically I’m a senior junior doctor 😂
8 years post graduation with many very expensive letters after my name
Tbf again I’m not unhappy with my salary but I think my remuneration suitably reflects my qualifications and experience, it isn’t just £££ for nothing.

Think long and hard.

Getting in aside medical school is the easy bit. Most fall over themselves to be family friendly and will facilitate local placements etc. All of this stops when you become a junior doctor.

Firstly you’ll be subject to a national recruitment process with no guarantee of getting a foundation job where you trained. Your F1/F2 job will almost certainly be in different hospitals some of which can be hours apart so you’re looking at living in between, moving or sucking up a horror of a commute on top of shift work. Whilst working you’ll be needing to do portfolio work and CV padding for specialty applications in your own time. There’s no guarantee of getting onto a training programme where you did F1/2 so you may be looking at moving again (and potentially every couple of years as deaneries cover vast areas). Alongside of this you’ll be revising for your professional exams, completing your portfolio, doing mandatory audit etc and CV padding to maximise your chance of getting a consultant position (all unpaid and in your own time).

To management, hospital admin (and much of the general public) you are not a person. You are a slot on the rota. Nobody will look out for you or answer when you raise concerns re staffing, workload etc. They will push you under the bus the second something goes wrong however. I know people who have has their leave denied for funerals of parents

Spend some time in junior doctor forums (e.g. Reddit) and make sure you go in with your eyes open. Not all hospitals are like this and some specialties are better than others (pathology, radiology, occupational medicine, public health).

If I had my time again I wouldn’t do it.

Unless you're planning on emigrating dont do it.

Its grim. The NHS is grim.

You'll likely burn out and quit within a couple of years disillusioned

Good luck to you if you decide to do it, make sure you go into it knowing what it entails though.
I was a trainee for 13 years - trainee means a fully qualified doctor, often the most senior doctor in the hospital overnight, who is training to be a GP/consultant.
After graduation you have to do the foundation programme (f1/2 years) which will be a variety of specialties in hospital and full shift rotas, often with allocated annual leave. After that you can apply for specialist training in a deanery (area) of your choice. The deaneries are very large and you can be sent to any of the hospitals in them as you do a year in each, there is no allowance for your personal circumstances. Some hospitals i worked at were 1.5/2 hours away so I stayed while working. That was pretty miserable. You also have to study for your post graduate exams in your own time and at your own expense. Hospital specialities are 6-8 years to consultant after foundation, assuming you don’t go part time or take any time out for research.
Pay scales for F1 to ST8 are available on the BMA or NHS website along with consultant pay scales.
Good luck and enjoy it if you decide to go for it!

Should have said bad leave denied for funerals of their own parents (and their own weddings…).

Look into your fee status. For second degrees and grad entry medicine I don't believe you're entitled to a loan for your tuition fees so that might be the deciding factor.

Ps you're not a fully qualified doctor after one year. You have full registration which is not the same. You're only an independent practitioner when you CCT; GP is the quickest route at 5 years post grad, most other specialties are 9 years post grad, with a few exceptions, eg psych, radiology, ED that are 7/8 years. It is a long slog and please don't think you're done after 1 year; it really really isn't like that. You're expected to move all over the country; having children does not exempt you from this.

If you're 39 now, it'll be a year for a levels at least and we're halfway through an academic year now. So you can't start until absolute earliest sept 2023. So you graduate July 2028. Then another 5 years min to finish post grad training as a GP 2033. You won't be done until youre 51! And this is with no career breaks (which most do take at some stage) and assuming you want to do general practice. It wasn't for me!

Saying that, it's the best job in the world, I'd never see myself doing anything else.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Have you thought about the night shifts?! It’s bad enough in your 20s - let alone your 40s

IIWY I would want to be sure that this urge/sense of calling isn't an emotional response to what sounds like a traumatic period of your life and/or an attempt to displace feelings about that.

Also, to have recently completed your Masters at age 39 suggests you were doing something else before that - what prompted that change, or decision to study?

Loving all the posts about a 100k salary.

What planet are these people on?

Maybe if you become a hospital consultant.

And as a GP only if you're a partner and again it depends on your practice.

@forinborin

‘Minimum’ time to independent practice (consultant or gp) would be 5 years after finishing med school if you choose GP track. I thought GPs can go into GP practice pretty much after FY2, and are on quite good money (60K+) from the start?

I think you are brave to be considering this! I think it would be very hard on you to study while looking after DC.Hours are brutal as above PP said . My nephew is a Doctor at a large teaching hospital ,and finds it very full on and challenging .

If I lived in the US, no way, it takes too long and the residencies are too brutal. In the UK, I would definitely go for it.

@Fluffycloudland77

Honestly I wouldn’t. Read “this is going to hurt” by Adam Kay because it really shows what it’s like with the long shifts.

I was going to recommend this too! It's a funny read but with a very serious underlying message.

I would look at becoming a physicians associate. It’s sort of hybrid between nurse and Dr. An up an coming proffesion. Many established healthcare professionals go into it and lots of areas to work in.

Honestly it feels a bit midlife crisis-y. The physical demands of working shifts at a junior level of medicine aren’t suited to someone in their 40s/50s. Your willingness to do A-levels followed by such a long degree, right after a masters, makes me wonder why you are spending so much of your life studying. Are you avoiding the workplace/family life? Or do you just love studying, in which case perhaps academia might be a better option? Maybe chat to a careers adviser or even a counsellor to explore why you’re attracted to this before making any big decisions.

I honestly think less doctors and nurses would burn out if medicine was 8hr shifts.

It’s in-humane what we expect hospital staff to do. I don’t want a knackered doctor looking after dh when he’s admitted and I worry so much when he goes in something will happen and I won’t be there with him because of covid.

@Porfre

Loving all the posts about a 100k salary.

What planet are these people on?

Maybe if you become a hospital consultant.

And as a GP only if you're a partner and again it depends on your practice.

Yes I know!

It's bizarre when the pay scales are so easy to Google. Hospital consultant (full time) starts on 87.5k going up to 97 at year 5. In the 10th year of consultancy it does indeed jump to 103k. A great salary but nowhere near this idea that 25 year olds with a couple of years of training under their belt can achieve. And I don't know any hospital consultant in my specialty on 10 sessions (full time) who has the time to top up their earnings with private work.

GP trainees are on about 40k at the end of their training.

I know someone who made partner 9 years post medicine course. And GP's easily earn over £100k is they do a bit of locum.

It's not about "making partner" in the same way as it is in law, for example. You can become a partner as soon as you've completed the 5 years post graduate training, if you can find a practice willing to take you. They'll probably bite your hand off at the moment as it's a hellish job at present. You have to buy-in though. Price depends on the area and the size of the practice, but £200k would be a reasonable ball park figure to pay. The £100k is a myth. £60-70k is more realistic. Even if it wasn't, you'd lose £30k in pensions (both employer and employee contributions have to be paid) and another £10K in indemnity fees, plus student loan payments, before you even start paying tax. Then there'll be the loan payment on the loan youve taken out to buy in. It's not a great salary, all things considered.