To think ds is good at and loves the wrong stuff - i.e not STEM?

[coffeerevelsrock]

He's in Y10 and very focussed and ambitious, but without a clear idea of a specific career he would like to pursue. He's already thinking about A levels as applications would need to be in this time next year, and when asked, I've said take the subjects you like best/are good at. These would be English, history (his passion), drama and MFL. His targets are all 8s and in his assessments this term he's got mainly 8s with a couple of 7s and a 9. Obviously I'm not bragging as this is completely relevant to the thread.

Although he's doing well all round, and always has, English and humanities come to him naturally and are his passion. I teach English Lit A level and he will read a book or watch a play and just say things it can take me a lot of effort to get some pretty able students to understand. He thinks, and it seems likely, that he is far more likely to get better grades in these subjects if he takes them at A level. He's determined to take French assuming it keeps going well at GCSE as well.

My instinct is to say take the ones you like, which would be lit, history, French and drama as a fourth that he might not complete necessarily. But now he is telling me about the wealth of statistics he has found about the poor pay and limited opportunities history and English graduates can look forward to. He is thinking he needs to head towards STEM subjects but isn't particularly enthused at the prospect. He's been considering law as a career, but has done some research on that which has given him the impression that it is very difficult to get an interesting career in which has further pushed him towards STEM.

Any words of wisdom from the knowledgeable people on here would be much appreciated! I certainly don't want to believe that arts and humanities degrees are pointless.

O

If you don't enjoy your degree then you can massively bomb it.

I did English, all of my friends who also did are employed - journalist, in publishing, teaching, accounting to say a few.

Salaries aren't as high as some STEM but I wouldn't say any are shocking. He should do what he's passionate about. Most people do extra training/diversify after their degree anyway.

My first degree is English Lit & Linguistics, my MSc is in Comparative Literature, and PhD on a topic relating to the Brontes.
I work in a senior post in Higher Education. I don’t earn a packet, but it’s a good salary (c £55k), and I like my job.
You work for a long time, and for a big part of your waking hours. It’s best to do something you have a chance of enjoying. Is it worth being miserable for 40+ years, just to earn a good salary?

@beastlyslumber

If I were a very intelligent young person today I wouldn't be looking to go to university at all, not to do a humanities degree. I'd look to get an apprenticeship or a job in an industry I was interested in, maybe try a few different things, and look for opportunities to build a career that way. Unless there is a specific profession he wants to get into which requires a degree, it's not worth it. Even then, an employer might put him through a degree at a later date if it's needed.

I think the days of uni being the best route into a good career are rapidly going, and many employers are way more interested in people who have experience/common sense/entrepreneurial qualities than in people with a degree. Not to mention that academic inflation and the fact that students are now consumers who can't be allowed to fail have rendered degrees less valuable than ever. I think the really smart young people are getting ahead of this now.

But perhaps some of the smart young people don’t think of university as a route to a job and want to spend three years widening their knowledge in a subject?

It's not true. Humanities subjects can provide brilliant incomes. I have a friend who was on a very high six figure salary as global manager of a division of a multi-national company. She has a history degree. Another friend is on six figures in marketing. Several more in advertising, business writing etc earn six figures.

There is definitely scope for great income in the marketing/advertising/brand management world - all of which careers recruit from Humanities

I am a lazy person so I choose to work PT but would, if I put in a 35 hour week for 46 weeks of the year, be on a great salary, doing a very pure humanities based job which I love.

I even know a few people who earn an absolute fortune as novelists, actors and film directors but that's a huge risk as most earn peanuts.

Just avoid academia and publishing!

OP, how does he get on with other skills like critical thinking, general data analysis, people leadership. If he is good at humanities and English, he is better off sticking with these, going to a good uni for amazing grades. Rather than hating and being mediocre at STEM subjects. If he has general leadership ability, he will do just fine.

Wish I had done sciences. So many other factots though like a pp said.

If he doesn’t like STEM subjects he may not be suited to a job in those fields anyway. So there would be no point forcing it, if he’s really not that way inclined.

However, there are lots of careers in STEM, especially Tech, that don’t require a STEM degree- he can still work for those types of companies with the good careers/salaries without needing to be a programmer.
I have an joint degree in English and another arts subject and work in finance/tech. It took a little longer to get started in a ‘career’ when I first graduated, as most grad schemes are geared towards law/finance/tech graduates. Though there are things like consulting which take most degrees.

When I first started out I was convinced I wanted to do something more arts-related, but after working I realised I wasn’t actually that suited to those types of careers, it was so competitive and for not much money. By luck I had a couple of temp jobs in STEM companies and saw the opportunity to make a good salary and career.

I’m reasonably MC, decent degree, etc so I know that makes it easier but I didn’t have any contacts to help me either.

I would tell him to do what he is interested in. Subjects he hates will be no good to him. I changed my options based on school advice and ended up dropping most of them and took up business studies instead. Funny enough I now run a business with my husband that is doing well. Tell him to advocate for himself and do what he enjoys, because unfortunately there isn't much joy in the world when you become an adult and if you can study something you enjoy or get a job you enjoy then I think you are winning in life. So many people hate their jobs.

There are people at the top of business, politics, media, marketing, management consultancy etc with humanities degrees.

The main thing I think they all have in common is a great ability to think and speak at the same time, therefore they’re articulate and confident on their feet, likeable, calm, command respect from how they talk.

If that skill is missing, then I would say go for STEM whether he likes it or not.

Otherwise, just make sure it’s a great university and course.

I have a humanities degree and it is worthless now. Perhaps there are people at the top with them, but those are people who are born at the top anyway - people like our politicians. If you're at the bottom of the social ladder and looking up life is very different and difficult.

Honestly unless he is planning to go into teaching - and the only reason I would consider that is that as a man in teaching he will have a much easier time in classrooms and be encouraged and pushed through no matter his capability - I would say try to move over to STEM. I don't know the market for law very well, but what I have heard is not encouraging. All these old professions require extensive voluntary and low pay experience before they pay off, and there have been a lot of redundancies lately. No one can afford to pay for their services, and so much of law is not enforced.

Has he seen the pay for research and lab work? Even for those with doctorates. STEM is certainly not all well paid and humanities not all poorly paid!
Does he have any idea of what he wants to do? STEM careers in particular often require a specific degree. Perhaps it happens in other areas that you can start work or do an apprenticeship and your employer will pay to pug you through a degree later but I don’t think that’s common at all for STEM careers, there’s enough graduates to choose from and the underpinning knowledge isn’t something gained on the job like in some careers. If STEM doesn’t interest him I think he’d be crazy to do it.

ParsleySageRosemary that's bleak.
If op and son feel that his chances are slim in that way look into traineeships. I believe some are available as a non degree route into becoming a solicitor.
If you are from an insecure background earning as you learn can be very empowering.

Another issue you will want to consider is where in the country you are. If you're in London anyway, or that eastern corridor up to Cambridge and Oxford there are still options. Elsewhere it is, to use KrispyKale's word, bleaker. It's hard to move in to these places if you're not already there.

Law is so varied! He shouldn’t write it off at 16! No need to do a law degree, it’s about 50/50 law and non-law graduated in entry-level roles.

Re the conversion course - most students get it paid for by a law firm, they don’t pay the fees themselves! If he can’t get a training contract and convince a law firm to pay for him then that’s probably a sign it’s not the right career for him anyway so he can go down a different path at that point. And there are so many corporate jobs out there other than law.

Barrister is the more competitive route but a) he won’t be able to go for it unless he gets a first at uni so the choice might be made for him anyway and b) he won’t have to make that decision for a good 5 years yet so he’s thinking way too far ahead!

Just FYI I am the only one of my school friends that did an arts degree and I out-earn all my STEM friends (who are researchers/NHS doctors). We’re mid-thirties now and I’ve out-earned them since graduating.

Re the conversion course - most students get it paid for by a law firm, they don’t pay the fees themselves! If he can’t get a training contract and convince a law firm to pay for him then that’s probably a sign it’s not the right career for him anyway so he can go down a different path at that point. And there are so many corporate jobs out there other than law.

This is so not true, there about twenty percent of training courses available v the amount of students each year graduating, and it’s not just that years graduates applying it’s previous years. The competition is immense. Only the very top or very luck have companies paying for conversion courses. It’s ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

I did STEM subjects and English together. Everyone said what a weird combination. I'm now a medical writer earning over 6 figures (so combining both disciplines). He can do both.

One of my DSs was really good at STEM ,MFL, and English and wanted to do Creative writing. I tried to persuade him to do STEM A levels thinking that would lead to a better career but DH said, rightly I suppose,he must make his own choices .He went on to study English at uni .He 23 now and is travelling at the moment teaching English very happily maybe not so lucrative but I think at some point they have to follow their own path .

I took all “written” A Level subjects because that’s what I loved: history, English Lit, Geog, Politics, Law. Got A*AAAB because they were subjects I loved and got a place at an ultra competitive uni to student History and Politics.

I then got an entry level job at an investment bank in a very “document heavy” role- my job was essentially to read legal and financial docs and write reports. For this, having a “written” degree rather than STEM was really useful. I would never have got this job without the uber competitive uni on my CV (attracts attention) and I would never have got into that degree studying subjects I didn’t love.

Fast forward 5 years, I took internal training opportunities to train as a Project Manager and moved departments so I now work with cutting edge technology. My 20 year old self that hated STEM would laugh at what I do now but I LOVE it! Interests change over time and your degree isn’t the be all and end all.

If you don’t have a specific career in my that requires a specific subject study what you love, get good grades and take work experience and careers advice at uni to work out all the options available to you once you’ve started. I can tell you as a junior in one of the largest and best paying firms in the world, that even 5 years later, they do not give a flying fig what I studied!

And I earn more money that any of my peer group, including the 2 who did straight science degrees!

I would encourage your son to study what he loves and what he is passionate about. There are many transferable skills developed through studying humanities. Explore careers related to humanities they are many and varied.

He 23 now and is travelling at the moment teaching English very happily maybe not so lucrative but I think at some point they have to follow their own path.

I wish people placed more value on these qualities. He's travelling and seeing the world - that's exciting. He's teaching English - that's valuable to society. And he's happy. That's the point of life that too many people overlook in pursuit of the highest salary.

I would advise him to do what he loves. Fwiw my ds is doing English and he has an offer from a magic circle firm to do law conversion with them to join as a trainee. He decided to do English as that was his passion.