To think ds is good at and loves the wrong stuff - i.e not STEM?

[coffeerevelsrock]

He's in Y10 and very focussed and ambitious, but without a clear idea of a specific career he would like to pursue. He's already thinking about A levels as applications would need to be in this time next year, and when asked, I've said take the subjects you like best/are good at. These would be English, history (his passion), drama and MFL. His targets are all 8s and in his assessments this term he's got mainly 8s with a couple of 7s and a 9. Obviously I'm not bragging as this is completely relevant to the thread.

Although he's doing well all round, and always has, English and humanities come to him naturally and are his passion. I teach English Lit A level and he will read a book or watch a play and just say things it can take me a lot of effort to get some pretty able students to understand. He thinks, and it seems likely, that he is far more likely to get better grades in these subjects if he takes them at A level. He's determined to take French assuming it keeps going well at GCSE as well.

My instinct is to say take the ones you like, which would be lit, history, French and drama as a fourth that he might not complete necessarily. But now he is telling me about the wealth of statistics he has found about the poor pay and limited opportunities history and English graduates can look forward to. He is thinking he needs to head towards STEM subjects but isn't particularly enthused at the prospect. He's been considering law as a career, but has done some research on that which has given him the impression that it is very difficult to get an interesting career in which has further pushed him towards STEM.

Any words of wisdom from the knowledgeable people on here would be much appreciated! I certainly don't want to believe that arts and humanities degrees are pointless.

O

The world doesn’t just spin on STEM subjects. I hate this obsession with them Quite.

@RavenclawesomeCrone

My DD sounds similar to your DS. She did history with a Language as an undergrad, then a masters. She now works for the Foreign Office in a policy advisory role (she absolutely loves it)

How did she get into that?

I'm a STEM graduate who's worked with STEM undergraduates. I really wouldn't recommend doing a STEM degree if you're not interested in the subject. It would be a long hard slog, and you might not do very well in it. I imagine a third in a STEM subject would be no better (probably worse) for your future earning potential than a first in, say, history.

@dabbydeedoo

She got a temp job after her first degree working for the Ministry of Justice. She worked her way up to manager and then took a career break to do her master in a politcal field she was interested in. The job came up on the Civil Service Jobs alerts, she applied and got it! It really is her dream job. She had to wait eight frustrating months for the high level vetting to come through, but now she is there and loving it.

@Classica

It's all about STEAM now. Science, technology, engineering, ARTS and mathematics

It really isn’t. Adding “Arts” in has just turned it into a lot of hot air.

That sounds fantastic for your dd, RavenClaw. Unfortunately ds is far too opinionated politically to consider the foreign office/civil service. I suggested that as an area and he said he wouldn't want to work for governments he didn't agree with - I think he would love to go into politics though. Anyway, that might change, obviously, and I'm sure he'd be good at it so we'll see.

@ColinTheKoala

The world doesn’t just spin on STEM subjects. I hate this obsession with them Quite.

Agreed. I need the creators of all forms to continue because the world would be a bloody boring place without them. I’m in a small city but we have 7 art galleries, we spend a lot of time in them as a family and sorely missed them during lockdowns.

I did Latin, French and German at "A" Level, admittedly in ante-diluvian times.
I ended up (after a couple of postgrads in Technical Translation and PGCE) working firstly as a technical writer and then going freelance in IT. Currently, after working as a business analyst and project manager, I am Lead PMO in Anti-Financial Crime Reporting for a global bank.
I do use my languages every day. Pay is good, too.

He sounds a lot like me as a teenager - loved English, history, languages, politics, etc. Basically all the discursive and essay-based subjects. I went on to do an English Literature degree, didn’t initially know what I wanted to do beyond that, but then went on to do the law conversion and am now a barrister (and by the way, went to a state school and did NOT have any ‘connections’… it can be done!) He’s right that this is an extremely competitive route, but the fact that he’s looked into it enough to be aware of that and is pragmatic enough to understand how stiff the competition is bodes well, in my view. If he has any specific questions, please feel free to message them to me, I’m really passionate about increasing social diversity at the Bar and making it as open as it can be.

He sounds very ambitious and it’s great that he’s thinking about the future. In terms of earnings, my experience is that the most important thing to go to the best university you can, where you can get the best degree. And he’s more likely to achieve that if he’s genuinely passionate about the subject and has a talent for it. When you come to apply for graduate jobs, for a very large number of them the actual degree you have isn’t relevant. I know people who studied English who have gone on to work in law, publishing, accounting, banking and finance, politics, media…

There's a big area between straight humanities and STEM.
In terms of careers business and economics graduates seem to do well. There's law, psychology as referenced above, marketing, media.
No point going full on stem in my opinion. Plenty of low paid jobs there too.

There’s some sort of statistic that’s really high like 80% of jobs it doesn’t matter what your degree is in, they just require a degree. I work in pensions with a medieval history graduate! He should do what he enjoys, he’ll be more motivated, happier and more successful.

Nonsense! Lots of people with history & English degrees go into public policy, communications, advertising, all kinds. He should do something he enjoys and not worry about the next stage too much.

I think it's always best to study what you enjoy. DH studied Politics but became an accountant. I studied History (but became a History teacher, which I generally love but is definitely not a career for the money!).

I did history, then law conversion, first in my family to go to uni, from lower middle class background but with parents who actively supported my education and paid for my law
Conversion which I will be forever grateful.

Most from my year in history went onto general graduate schemes or further study. I was going to recommend civil service but note what you say about working with governments you don’t agree with - he might mellow that position in time, or he could work in an area of the massive service that he doesn’t have strong views on.
If he is keen on politics then a history degree then law would be the perfect.

Depending on his politics working for a trade union or HR would be good options too.

I’ve never regretted my history degree. It’s my passion and taught me excellent transferable skills.

I did pretty much the same A levels as these, studied English at uni, now work in consultancy and doing well for myself, thanks very much.

Any history grads I know have built excellent careers, in things like law, politics, project management, PR.

You do have to be focused on an end goal coming to the end of your degree. The problem arises when people with these kind of degrees lack focus and allow themselves to drift. But so long as he can keep that focus, I'd strongly advise this rather than getting a mediocre degree in something he doesn't enjoy.

He could also consider economics, which bridges between the science and arts.

@Kimonolady

He sounds a lot like me as a teenager - loved English, history, languages, politics, etc. Basically all the discursive and essay-based subjects. I went on to do an English Literature degree, didn’t initially know what I wanted to do beyond that, but then went on to do the law conversion and am now a barrister (and by the way, went to a state school and did NOT have any ‘connections’… it can be done!) He’s right that this is an extremely competitive route, but the fact that he’s looked into it enough to be aware of that and is pragmatic enough to understand how stiff the competition is bodes well, in my view. If he has any specific questions, please feel free to message them to me, I’m really passionate about increasing social diversity at the Bar and making it as open as it can be.

He sounds very ambitious and it’s great that he’s thinking about the future. In terms of earnings, my experience is that the most important thing to go to the best university you can, where you can get the best degree. And he’s more likely to achieve that if he’s genuinely passionate about the subject and has a talent for it. When you come to apply for graduate jobs, for a very large number of them the actual degree you have isn’t relevant. I know people who studied English who have gone on to work in law, publishing, accounting, banking and finance, politics, media…

Thank you very much for that kind offer - I think he may well have a question so we may take you up on it .

Another way of looking at things is to focus less on the salary, or the job type, and more on what attracts to a particular career. For example, do you want frequent opportunities to travel on the job? Work with small groups or a wide range of different people? Are you motivated by the prospect of generating some renown in your field (and how much - do you want to be a household name, or would you be more comfortable with a lot of respect in a narrow circle)? Do you like the idea of varied, unpredictable work, or are you happier with a timetable that can reliably be plotted well in advance? Are you keen to freelance or work for yourself (much easier in some careers than others)?

Thinking about answers to questions like that, and applying them to different possible careers, can also be a useful exercise. Although not necessarily one that will strongly guide subject choices at 16+.

I hate this obsession with STEM. All obsessed with whether the cat is alive or dead in the box and probabilities of each, never once stopping to ask who the fuck put the the cat in the box with a radioactive substance in the first place😁.

Let him follow his passion. I did a vocational subject (law) at uni. Regretted it for the past 20 odd years. Just heading back to uni to do what I should have done 20 years ago -fulfilling that unfulfilled passion.

@dabbydeedoo I'm poor now! I've spent most of my life poor!

I'm DEFINITELY not privileged on that score!

I'm well aware of the need to earn! I also know what it means to go without ESSENTIALS and not just things it would be nice to have but which aren't needed.

But I don't think what's being discussed here is about poverty at all!

Whatever degree he chooses barring ill health (which is why I'm poor) or similar unfortunate circumstances he will still earn enough to live on pretty comfortably in all likelihood

I've also had times when I was earning decent money...and I was miserable!

I also suffer from severe mental illness and good mental health is far more precious than ANY amount of money.

Plus poor mh really buggers your earning prospects! Take it from one who knows!

Define very low pay? Because I don't know ANY graduates long term in nmw roles or (when able re fit and healthy etc) in part time roles

The arts/humanities as a degree subject don't necessarily equate to very poor pay!

I've 2 degrees (which makes not being able to work VERY frustrating!), one in healthcare and one in English, my ex fellow students who are fit and healthy are all doing well financially, well enough to live comfortably at any rate they may not be on 6 figure salaries (which lets face it nobody NEEDS to be)

I think people need to consider what they actually NEED rather than risk burning themselves out doing a job they are miserable in but which pays well!

Money and prestige are not everything.

Hear hear!

I find it quite worrying that a 14(?) year old (there was a thread about ops stating school year as opposed to age a while back saying age is preferable as not all of us even within Uk are familiar with ENGLISH school years) is worrying about future earnings! At that age they should have dreams based on their passions not a potential salary!

@TractorAndHeadphones I agree there are a lot of jobs that are non traditional that many won't have heard of that are perfectly suited for languages and humanities.

I'm from a military family one side and civil servants (mainly international) the other! There are TONS of amazing jobs in both those spheres where mfl and other humanities qualifications are highly sought after - and the pay and conditions are pretty damn good too!

One person I did the English degree with is now a dept head of recruitment in USA...for a tech company! One you will ALL have heard of and may very well be using one of their devices now! Doesn't appear to have held her back!

@RobotValkyrie thank you for your honest and refreshing post that stem isn't always all that!

I know plenty of people who work in stem too and they're not all earning big bucks or even have a great work/life balance. A number went into it PURELY thinking of the promised high salary and are now very disillusioned. If you haven't the NATURAL affinity for any field it's gonna be bloody hard work for any salary and it's probably gonna make you miserable!

I imagine a third in a STEM subject would be no better (probably worse) for your future earning potential than a first in, say, history.

Very well put

Op if he wants to go into politics then generally speaking law is the best route (for non etonians)

@Kimonolady a friend of mine has also recently (in her 40's!) gone to uni (this wasn't an option for her at 18 financially) studied law and eventually become a barrister. V much wc background, extremely impressed by her but even she would say it is crazy competitive and still quite elitist in the route.

The problem arises when people with these kind of degrees lack focus and allow themselves to drift.

That applies to anyone regardless of degree. I know someone with a 1st in a stem degree from a v good uni but who since uni has basically been lazy and isn't doing well in prestige/pay terms indeed he struggles to hold down a job at all!

@ColinTheKoala

The world doesn’t just spin on STEM subjects. I hate this obsession with them Quite.

This obsession has appeared from the supposed need for more scientists, researchers, etc but the truth is highly paid 'true' STEM jobs are far and few between. For every academic position there are loads of competitors. Also STEM people can go into non-STEM things and not the other way round, which is true for 'some' things but not the majority of jobs.

Even programming for example a biology graduate doesn't have more of an advantage than a philosophy graduate in fact the latter is probably better...

luminate.prospects.ac.uk/the-uks-stem-skills-shortage

A skills mismatch rather than shortage

@coffeerevelsrock

That sounds fantastic for your dd, RavenClaw. Unfortunately ds is far too opinionated politically to consider the foreign office/civil service. I suggested that as an area and he said he wouldn't want to work for governments he didn't agree with - I think he would love to go into politics though. Anyway, that might change, obviously, and I'm sure he'd be good at it so we'll see.

Oh bless him, the idealism and naiveté of youth! He’ll soon find out that when he needs to earn money sometimes he’ll need to put up and shut up.

He needs to do what he enjoys.

Might be worth your DS looking at these links:

www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/news/arts-humanities-and-social-science-graduates-resilient-economic-downturns/

www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/documents/217/right-skills.pdf

This is also quite interesting on the growth of the creative economy (and highlights that with AI, automation and robotics the creative industries are the ones which are the most resilient to these potential changes to employment.

creativeconomy.britishcouncil.org/guide/what-creative-economy/

I was in your DSs position many moons ago and was better at arts subjects than STEM. I chose STEM, but if I look at my friends the ones that earn the mega bucks (not me!) are generally the arts and humanities grads. I think a lot is down to drive, determination and confidence (plus luck and privilege) regardless of what subject you choose! As your DS is so proactive about his future sounds like he’s on the pathway to drive and determine already!

There are many, many different law careers, it would be crazy to rule it out as an option because it’s boring when there are so many different things it can be. I say this as a lawyer who has worked in private practice and in-house, across different sectors, and also have experience in public law/human rights/international criminal law.

For what it’s worth, I studied law as an undergraduate at Oxbridge with people with a total range or A-level subjects, who have gone on to very, very different careers. Some earning huge amounts, some far less. Pretty much all enjoy their careers.