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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think this is how violent men get their start in life?

287 replies

Anycrispsleft · 28/11/2021 07:47

I wanted to know if you think I'm being U in this scenario, with a boy from my daughters' class. I'll try and tell the whole story from start to finish, but for a bit of background - my 9yo twin (shut up Mumsnet, they really are twins Grin) are in school with a boy, G, and a girl, M. All 4 of them have known each other since nursery, and at nursery they got on OK as most kids do, but since then G's behaviour has gone downhill a bit and he's hit one of my kids a couple of times and is often in trouble at school. Ms mum has been an unofficial childminder for G most of his life: he lives with his dad, a lone parent until about 18 months ago when he got married, so he and M are often together.

The first stushie was about 6 months ago. M Skyped one of my kids one Sunday afternoon and invited them to go and play in her garden.

  1. my kids turned up - G was there as well, being looked after by M's mum/on a playdate
  2. M went and played with my kids in preference to G
  3. G tried to interrupt their game by taking their stuff
  4. The girls retaliated by hiding their stuff from him (and probably laughing at him and stuff, I'm not saying they were particularly kind)
  5. He went home in a strop and said the three of them hadn't been nice to him
  6. My two came home, also in a strop, said G had been disrupting their game and acting like an idiot - I asked them whether they'd called him any names or hit him or anything - no (and I am inclined to believe them, bc at the very least if one of them had been a fecker they would have come back up the road fighting about who caused the fight)
  7. The dad phones me and tells me his boy is upset and I need to talk to my kids and tell them to apologise. I tell him they've already talked to me about it and I don't see any reason for them to apologise any more than he should, that it all sounds like like normal kid falling-out and if the kids don't want to play with each other I'm not going to force them.
  8. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he also phones M's mum. M's mum takes her up to his house and makes M apologise.
  9. The day after M skypes my daughter to say she's not allowed to play with her any more. I tell M she's always welcome at our house.

M's mother never got in touch with me, so I was left in this weird limbo. I wasn't there, G's dad wasn't there, M's mum never spoke to me about the incident, so nobody was actually accusing my kids of anything to me but they couldn't see their friend any more and they were supposed to apologise for something (but G's dad couldn't exactly say what)? I concluded that they're all fucking mental G's dad is maybe paying M to childmind G, and so she feels obliged to make sure he has a nice time and stays to the end of the playdate, and maybe didn't want my kids there at all, but didn't feel like she could say that? Anyway not my monkeys etc... I told the kids not to go down there, we had M over for a few playdates organised by the kids themselves, and all was reasonably quiet.
Then, a couple of weeks ago, my kids were coming out of afterschool and the boy was still playing in the playground with one of his friends. He was like "na na na, you have to go to extra school" and my older daughter was like "bite me loser, the after school lady gave us sweeties" and she waved the sweeties at him and he and his friend chased her down the road, tried to get the sweets off her, then tried to strangle her, before my other daughter and their wee friend from afterschool pulled him off.
Given my opinion of the dad isn't great I said to them to just tell the school in the first instance. The teacher dealt with it pretty robustly, giving them the two of them pretty thoroughly into trouble and making them write an apology to my daughter. I thought that was an end to it - my daughter wasn't that bothered about it - and then on Thursday night I get 3 missed calls and 2 messages on my phone from the dad wanting to speak to me. I just deleted them, then he ran into my husband and chewed his ear off for about half an hour about how after this recent episode the boy had been complaining that he had to apologise and my daughter's had not had to apologise for that time 6 months ago, and the dad said he felt that it had been playing on the boy's mind, and that maybe it had even been responsible for the worsening of his behaviour over the past 6 months. He left his phone number, and asked us to think about it over the weekend. That my daughter not playing with him 6 months ago was the trigger for the boy's mental unrest, and not say the fact that his father had just got married and his new sister had been born, about a month before? That his hurt feelings somehow justified him trying to strangle my daughter, that excluding someone from your game is the same as strangling them? That boys are entitled to girls' care and attention, and if they don't get it, they're entitled to respond with violence? I mean TBH there's no point me putting this in AIBU because there is no way on this earth I would make my daughter apologise to that wee guy. I'm amazed though. That anybody could think that's a normal way to raise your kids.

OP posts:
EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 07:32

How on earth is a 9yo girl supposed to assess that a child lacks emotional development?
Gosh I'm not blaming the little girl, maybe the girls parent could have explained his situation with her DD earlier after the initial fall-out before it escalated to parents agreeing the twins shouldn't visit again.

Her DM should have advised them to ignore him as he obviously has issues given Dad rang etc.
He provoked her, she responded with ‘bite me’. ‘Bite me’ is extremely tame given he’s hit her on a few occasions.
The narrative will always go against the other DC. If these 4 were together from preschool I'm sure the girls were well able too.
Plus why would G's DM mind him daily if he's a regular hitter?

EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 07:38

Has he been expelled or suspended from school pending investigation?

frazzledasarock · 29/11/2021 07:40

@EmeraldShamrock

How on earth is a 9yo girl supposed to assess that a child lacks emotional development? Gosh I'm not blaming the little girl, maybe the girls parent could have explained his situation with her DD earlier after the initial fall-out before it escalated to parents agreeing the twins shouldn't visit again.

Her DM should have advised them to ignore him as he obviously has issues given Dad rang etc.
He provoked her, she responded with ‘bite me’. ‘Bite me’ is extremely tame given he’s hit her on a few occasions.
The narrative will always go against the other DC. If these 4 were together from preschool I'm sure the girls were well able too.
Plus why would G's DM mind him daily if he's a regular hitter?

Why would M’s mum childminder him if he’s a regular hitter?

Because she gets money for childminding.

And it sounds like she does very little minding leaving her poor child to keep G entertained.

Poor girls having to pander and appease a violent male.

RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 07:50

@Ozanj

At 9 I would expect the girl to be bigger than the boy she’s teasing.
What does that have to do with anything.

TWO boys chased her down and strangled her.

That’s a crime. A very violent one that in the uk is considered equal to rape.

EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 07:53

Why would M’s mum childminder him if he’s a regular hitter?

Because she gets money for childminding.

Well we are the DC teachers setting out examples of what is acceptable once money or comfort is involved.

EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 07:55

I wouldn't bring a violent DC into my home for any amount of moneys.

RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 07:55

@EmeraldShamrock

He hasn't developed emotional maturity, he appears extra sensitive and had a disproportionate reaction to emotional situations, he is 9.

I know some very nice men who once was a scrappy boy, as DC we all fought on different days, gender didn't come into it as a 9 y.o. it was a rough area
Agree with pp "bite me" is teasing a child who lacks emotional development.
Most 9y.o girls are ahead of the 9y.o boys, he has no DM either for growths and support.

No most 9 year old girls are not ‘ahead’ of 9 year old boys.

Girls are socialised very differently to boys. This continual telling them they are inherently more mature than boys is so old perverted men can avoid feeling guilt or shame about finding a teenage girl sexy.

It’s disgusting.

If society expected boys to be as mature and responsible as girls then there wouldn’t be any claim of girls being ‘ahead’ of boys.

Not that a 9 year old being ‘ahead’ would have any bearing on this whatsoever.

He still committed a violent attack.

vivainsomnia · 29/11/2021 08:04

He still committed a violent attack
Indeed and this need to be addressed very seriously.

It doesn't take away that OP needs to stop thinking her Dad's are totally innocent bystanders and needs to teach them that kindness goes a long way and bullying is not acceptable.

tallduckandhandsome · 29/11/2021 08:06

@vivainsomnia

He still committed a violent attack Indeed and this need to be addressed very seriously.

It doesn't take away that OP needs to stop thinking her Dad's are totally innocent bystanders and needs to teach them that kindness goes a long way and bullying is not acceptable.

Be kind to a boy who has her a few times? Why?
RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 08:08

Exactly @tallduckandhandsome

EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 08:08

If society expected boys to be as mature and responsible as girls then there wouldn’t be any claim of girls being ‘ahead’ of boys.
I agree, we excuse it pandering to it.
If it was my DD I'd call the police frightening the shit out of him.
Someone needs to sort him out, clearly parent and CM won't.

Gliderx · 29/11/2021 08:33

Someone needs to sort him out

What do you mean by this? Frightening a distressed, emotional young child who is having trouble processing their responses and therefore acts violently and inappropriately is wrong and close to being abusive. He needs intervention but also care. Adults have a responsibility in their interactions with children.

It is very distressing to see a group of children turn on a lone other child and it does sometimes lead to lashing out by the other child, although this is an extreme case of that. You try to teach them to turn the other cheek, walk away and accept that other children can play with who they want (and deal with any nasty behaviour from the other children), but it is a difficult lesson for them to learn when they have no one to play with (even if there are sometimes reasons for that) and they are often being taunted. We all crave human contact, although none of us have a right to it. Children are no different.

EmeraldShamrock · 29/11/2021 08:54

Someone needs to sort him out.
He needs professional help, my DS has an emotional deregulation disorder he requires a lot of help without this he'd possibly react similar, thankfully we've been working/helping him from a young age alongside MH, OT, teaching professionals.
Someone needs to do the same for this boy otherwise OP is correct a violent boy without help will be a violent man.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 29/11/2021 09:22

@vivainsomnia

If a bloke hit you a few times would you be 'kind' to him?

If a bloke and his mate chased you and strangled you would you think they had committed a crime or just think they're obviously going through a tough time so no huge drama?

thepeopleversuswork · 29/11/2021 10:06

What's disturbing about this whole scenario is that the kid's dad appears to believe that his son's emotional welfare is wholly dependent on the behaviour and actions of women and girls. He's pinning his son's behaviour on a relatively minor incident which took place months ago and ignoring the turmoil in his own emotional life and the role that might have played. This is a terrible message to send to a boy: that its basically down to women to manage your emotional welfare and that its therefore always their fault if you feel bad or angry.

So you're right OP: this is how violent men are created.

It is also the case that your DD's probably weren't very kind to him and I would have disciplined them for this. But it in no way justifies his violent behaviour towards them.

RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 10:56

‘Sometimes leads to lashing out’

What a way to justify this boys violent crime and victim blame the girl.

He had already hit them, they didn’t want to play with him and drew boundaries.

He was the one who stole the toys. He was the one who teased her after school first. He is the one being unkind and then using their reaction as an excuse to attack her.

The two boys who chased her down and attacked her and strangled her are the group who are turning on a child.

Gliderx · 29/11/2021 11:35

‘Sometimes leads to lashing out’

What a way to justify this boys violent crime and victim blame the girl.

It's not justifying, it's a statement of fact. Sometimes isolated children (including girls as well though you do see it more often in boys) do lash out, especially where cornered/mocked. It's the wrong response and parents and educators have to work with them to help them take responsibility and give them other coping tools.

We should not treat 9yo boys like adult men. They are children and, as such, have more in common with 9yo girls than with adult men, which some people here are forgetting.

RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 11:49

‘Leads to’ suggests cause and effect. That’s suggesting that the girl is the cause of his attack on her. That’s justifying his abuse of her and suggesting she caused it, which is victim blaming.

tallduckandhandsome · 29/11/2021 11:50

He’s not isolated, he was with a friend when he chased OP’s did down and tried to strangle her.

MollysDolly · 29/11/2021 11:52

@sparepantsandtoothbrush

The attempted strangling is awful.

However, your twins WERE nasty in the first incident. The boy was there before your twins and was then excluded from playing with them, including them hiding toys from him. And your daughter baited him waving sweets at him. I'm not excusing his behaviour but your children were pretty nasty too

Yep.
TractorAndHeadphones · 29/11/2021 11:55

YANBU.
All violent men, abusers - it starts at a point and if left unchecked results in a nasty adult.
At which point there’s no understanding, they’re all just bad people etc etc but it should have been culled at the roots shouldn’t ut
*thé behaviour not the people

youvegottenminuteslynn · 29/11/2021 12:00

@Gliderx

‘Sometimes leads to lashing out’

What a way to justify this boys violent crime and victim blame the girl.

It's not justifying, it's a statement of fact. Sometimes isolated children (including girls as well though you do see it more often in boys) do lash out, especially where cornered/mocked. It's the wrong response and parents and educators have to work with them to help them take responsibility and give them other coping tools.

We should not treat 9yo boys like adult men. They are children and, as such, have more in common with 9yo girls than with adult men, which some people here are forgetting.

Isolated and cornered? He was with a mate and chased after OP's daughter.

Then strangled her.

Gliderx · 29/11/2021 12:24

‘Leads to’ suggests cause and effect. That’s suggesting that the girl is the cause of his attack on her. That’s justifying his abuse of her and suggesting she caused it, which is victim blaming.

Bit of a stretch, perhaps Hmm.

RedCarpetRebellion · 29/11/2021 12:31

What is meant by ‘leads to’ Merriam Webster: to result in.

What is meant by ‘to result in’ Merriam Webster: to cause.

Not a stretch.

Rheia1983 · 29/11/2021 12:32

Why are there women here telling that the little girls should have "been kind" to someone who had already hit them a couple of times?

Isn't this teaching girls that it is alright if boys (and later men) hit them from a young age?

Isn't this how women get early conditioning at appeasing and putting up with abuse?