To have said to my friend that she can be snobby

[StartingAgain33]

I have a friend (j). She was going out with a lovely guy (R) for a couple of months but ended up dropping him. She called him 'stupid' (only to me but still) and told him he had to change the way he talked because it wasn't 'proper english' when they were going out, so he was trying to change his accent etc.

When she broke up with him she told him she couldn't believe he didn't have savings and that they could never go on the types of holidays she wanted to go on (he has a decent living, but he isn't money driven and also has a daughter who he supports financially. She was also incredulous he hadn't been to London before etc, and I think left him feeling a bit crap.

Fast forward six months and she decided she wanted to go him a go again because she's realised he's actually a really nice person compared to most people she dates and maybe the money thing doesn't matter (she is independently wealthy, has a big trust fund and also owns her house outright etc so can afford to pay more if they have a kid together). So they started seeing eachother, but he was initially reluctant because he said he felt he didn't have enough money for her. Instead of trying to reassure him she said he was being 'stupid' and took it as a big rejection even though she had initially given him this idea?

Anyway, eventually they get it together and spend a weekend together, but he ends it at the end saying they were too different. She's inconsolable, and sends me a ten minute crying voice note about. In the voice note, she says he said he was worried about her ever meeting his family, and she doesn't understand it, but at the same time says she heard his mum on the phone who 'sounded AWFUL - wasn't speaking proper English, was REALLY CHAVVY' etc, and also said that she just 'can't bring herself to like the kind of people that shop in B&M (!)' (even though she shops in B&M?), but that she would have comprimised for him etc. She said they'd had a conversation about their favourite pubs, and she said her favourite was a Raymond Blanc one and his was a carvery - she'd been incredulous and said 'what? those canteen things?'. She'd also called a garden ornament he'd said he liked 'cheap, plasticky and chavvy'. But she totally didn't get why he would come away feeling crap from that interaction.

I actually had to stop the voicenote halfway through as I just found it really hard to listen to. I hate snobbery in and of itself. It's just so lazy and reeks of insecurity. And on a personal note, I went to Oxford uni and sound posh but I grew up on a council estate and have a 'chavvy' family, as she'd put it. I felt she was speaking to the wrong audience.

I told her I found it hard to listen to and that I can see why he came away feeling like they weren't right together, and that I know she is a kind person but this kind of chat doesn't align with that for me. I've been quite gentle and kind about it, as much as I can, but she's turning it into a massive drama and saying 'why can't I have an opinion about a cheap plasticky garden ornament' and 'but I don't like chavs!' and she just won't see my perspective at all.

I've only known her a year but we've become quite close during that time. I have noticed she's unnecessarily harsh about people, and often to their faces. She has also fallen out with pretty much all of her friends and she doesn't really have any. I'm now thinking I can see why, as I'm starting to feel her anger turn on me but I couldn't just sit there and listen to this stuff. I get she's upset that they've broken up and I want to support her but she won't stop spouting this crap and they'd only been together again a week.

Am I being unreasonable?

Hitler? Blow jobs? She does tell you an awful lot of things, doesn't she?

She’s entitled to her feelings but she doesn’t realise or doesn’t care how she comes across. If she had just said we have different taste and expectations from life, it doesn’t sound judgmental not like mocking garden gnomes etc. I come from a chavvy family myself and although wouldn’t be offended personally, would raise my eyebrows at someone expressing themselves like that!

Do you think it's possible that she's unwell in some way? Not that it's your problem, but she sounds very extreme and saying that she hates everyone etc, it doesn't sound right.

It's really worrying that this lady is not picking up on the fact that she loses friends and relationships so easily and can't see herself as the problem.

She sounds a bit detached from reality. I'd be embarrassed to be seen as her friend due to her attitude, which is quite ironic when you think about hers.

@Thecurliestwurly yes, I would feel uncomfy introducing her to some of my friends if she spouted this stuff, but before this I never would have thought she would! She is very different to my usual person for sure. But I didn't want to be an inverted snob if you see what I mean!

@PleasantBirthday she is not very happy at the moment at all, no, and I think it's feeding this attitude. She left her husband of ten years (who sounded lovely) a few years ago and bitterly regrets it and is very lonely. She also hates her job, and regularly tells me she's really depressed. Last week she said she thought about suicide sometimes and I said she really needed to go to a doctor, or get therapy. She is very antidrugs (we then had a long debate about this) and also said she can't afford therapy (she can, she just hates spending any money!) so it kind of reached a stalemate, but it does keep coming up and I do worry about her. I also would feel bad leaving her because I think isolation is part of the issue (although she says she just doesn't need friends like I do and has always been like this).

Anyway, to balance this out - in terms of what she offers me - she is a really consistent friend. We talk A LOT. She's kind of been like my platonic partner we've gotten so close. She's generally kind with me, but also calls me out on my stuff in a way that can be really helpful (also sometimes a bit too challenging but I have no issue sparring back). I feel I've actually learnt a lot from her in terms of being more upfront about what I do and don't like in dating, which has yielded results, and I think in some ways we are so opposite in character we learn a lot from eachother. It's been mostly great, but then this comes up and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

I am wondering whether I can somehow keep the friendship without it touching on this stuff but I don't know if it's possible, and also whether that's just kind of a bit morally weak.

I mean no offence to you by this but your updates are making you sound more like her. Not in your behaviour- you've not divulged any. But you're disgusted that she can stay friends with someone who secretly takes pics of women. And you're disgusted by her argument. But you're argument is the exact same for staying friends with her? How does that make you any better. You're not far enough into this friendship, with what sounds like a narcissist, to not see she's a total asshole, but you've been shown her colours and how awful she is, yet you're going to stay friends with her because she's not been mean to you?
Your Hitler argument applies to you too. That poor bloke, I'm so glad he escaped. I hope you do too.

@Meadowbreeze you make a good point. I was responding to a couple of people who'd asked what I got out of the friendship and was trying to say she's not all bad - plus just listing all this stuff without any counterbalance makes her out to be a villain and I worried that was unfair representation. This stuff hasn't been obvious from the beginning at all, but lately this has all kind of come together to show me a picture I'm uncomfortable with, and I am thinking about ending the friendship hence posting here. I was worried I myself was being a bit judgemental or harsh but clearly the consensus is I'm not!

@Meadowbreeze I also think I always want to believe the best in people or that they're really nice underneath / can change etc - but then with a couple of people I've hung on for longer than others would, and i'm trying to get out of that habit. So it's helpful to see people agree they'd feel uncomfortable with her comments, but I did need to show the other side of things just in case.

She sounds frightful, a lot of money and no class. The guy sounds lovely.

I think you are being unreasonable staying friends if she is basically going to be snobby about your upbringing. If you are single I would get that guys number as you maybe be well suited if he is kind!

Sounds like this guy dodged a bullet.

@starTingagain33 I understand you want to see people change but she's not really showing that's what she wants to do is she? I don't really understand your argument tbh. No where in your posts does it claim she's seeing herself as a problem at any point. She sounds incredibly self absorbed and rude. Your only counter argument to her evil behaviour is that she's nice to you. Surely you know that's going to end eventually.
Remember that you become who you associate yourself with. All the best getting out of this friendship. She sounds horrendous.

I know she is a kind person

Well, she doesn't sound very kind to me. She sound nasty. A kind person wouldn't criticise and constantly put someone down.

Poor bloody guy, she must have made him feel like shit. He's far better off without her in his life.

I'll fully admit that there are certain things that I wouldn't find attractive in a man when it come to speech and attitudes but I'd just steer clear of someone if I thought we were too different.

I certainly wouldn't expect him to try to change the way he spoke or live up to some idea I have of what a man should be like.

Horrible way to treat someone.

I don't think I could be friends with someone like that. How long before she starts finding fault with your background?

I think this guy and you are probably going to be better off without her.

I find people like her quite cowardly because when challenged on their opinions they tend to back down. I also find them really hard to socialise with in public

There a difference between being a snob and just being plain rude. Your friend may be a snob but most of the stuff you're complaining about is to do with her being a very rude person!

@pigsdofly yes I agree, she's showing herself to be an unkind person and I don't really want anything to do with that. I'm quite saddened and shocked as I didn't expect this of her, but I guess I'm still in the getting to know you stage.

@Meadowbreeze she did show some movement because we chatted about the money thing vs what's important and she eventually decided I she was prioritising the wrong things and that it was the guy's character that she missed, not anything material.

Also today she said she sent him an apology message after our argument to say she didn't mean to make him feel bad, and has reflected since that she sometimes criticises in a tongue in cheek way but doesn't mean it and that maybe it doesn't come from a nice place (ie she's trying to make herself feel better than the other person).

So, that was good, but then she started listing horrible things she'd said and said they were 'only little' which I disagreed with, and it turned into another difficult exchange. So yeah. There was some reflection but I think I'm done.

Outside of being snobby I would categorise her behaviour as actually quite abusive.

She met a nice man (by your accounts) and proceeded to tear him down, tell him he had to change how he talked, he was stupid, he didn’t make enough money, his mum was a chav.

Honestly I would probably tell the man to run for his life then join him.

She's being abusive to him. She's tearing him down on the way he talks, the way he likes, the things he likes and was trying to change him to her view of "perfect".
Ditch the friend OP. She is not a nice person and it won't be long until she starts on you.

Time to reduce her presence in your life, I think.

You deserve much nicer friends, he deserves a much nicer partner, and she deserves a wet kipper in her face, frankly.

I'm also from a very 'chavvy' background, and snobbery of any kind makes me very cross indeed. (As I've moved around a lot for work and other reasons and don't have much of an accent any more, amongst other things, people often don't realise I'm from that 'chavvy' background. I often take great delight in letting them know, though, especially if they're being snobby idiots or behaving like Hyacinth. I had a "friend" at uni who was a lot like this, though they weren't independently wealthy and didn't have a Trust fund. (They just acted like they did.)

I really can't imagine why no one wants to be friends with her....! She's going to end up a sad, lonely, bitter old woman like Miss Haversham if she continues to hold and express these attitudes; or, as someone else said, with a man who's equally unpleasant, money-minded and snobbish.

She does sound very unhappy, so there are probably some unresolved issues in her childhood, but if she's that wealthy, she can pay for a counsellor, and stop involving you in her drama. Thing is, if she's been that wealthy all her life, she's probably never encountered anyone who'll tell her the home truths she evidently needs to hear or help her understand a) that she's not perfect, so she has no right to judge others and b) it's fine to have a different opinion from others about ornaments, TV, etc, but the courteous way to approach it is to say something like, "It's not really my taste, but wouldn't it be a boring world if we were all the same?"

Like others, I'm not quite sure why you'd want to be friends with her; she's evidently not learning from your behaviour (you sound lovely), so why put yourself through this?! Just gently disengage....

*I also would feel bad leaving her because I think isolation is part of the issue (although she says she just doesn't need friends like I do and has always been like this).

Anyway, to balance this out - in terms of what she offers me - she is a really consistent friend. We talk A LOT. She's kind of been like my platonic partner we've gotten so close.*

These are red flags I'm afraid OP. I've had toxic friends who have made me feel like their best friend, we could talk about anything and we hung out all the time. I had just moved to a city where I didn't know many people and felt like they were taking me under their wing. And then when I started to make more friends (through them!) and hang out with them independently, I'd get guilt-tripped over abandoning that friend. I did feel like we were platonic partners (we were both single at the time).

Needless to say, when she turned on me she did so with full force (culminating in her violently assaulting me) and it was all fairly traumatic. And the reason she needed to hang out with me all the time even though she was the one ostensibly with a larger circle of friends in a city she knew was because everyone else had sensibly distanced themselves from her.

She sounds snobby and pretentious, you’re bitching judgementally behind the back of someone you call a “friend”. Neither of you are coming out of this covered in glory.

Good for you, sounds like you put it across well and she will probably never see how she has been rude.. Sometimes it's best to say that you'll agree to disagree as they will never see your point.. That's how I often leave it with my Mum!!

@StartingAgain33

She's also so angry and upset with me I'm now thinking of just apologising. I didn't mean to make her feel judged but I couldn't sit there and listen to it over and over. We had a massive long argument about it and she wouldn't back down asking me to justify why I thought it was rude and disagreeing with me etc. I'm exhausted and not sure I want to lose her friendship over this, but also I'm starting to think maybe she's just not a nice person. Am I being overly harsh?

Gordon Bennett she is hard work & unpleasant, & I cannot for the life of me see why you want to support her & don't want to lose her friendship.

I'd also hazard that she is less upset about her relationship breaking down than she is pissed off that she has lost what she thought was control over a man she felt she could safely look down on & treat as 'lesser'.

She's got form for losing friends, expects you to listen to 10-minute voicenote rants, wants you to endlessly dissect why her only her opinion should count ... & is now so irrationally angry that you are THINKING OF APOLOGISING (for what, ffs?!) just to make her stop.

May I ask ... do you have people-pleasing tendencies? - because from what you have reported of your own speech, you were reasonable, measured, & helpfully honest. You have nowt to apologise for.

Nobody can tell you what's best for you, but in your situation, especially given the short duration of this friendship, I'd send her a terse text now to say you are done discussing her ex, don't appreciate her unwarranted anger, & that she can contact you again when she's simmered down & is ready to be courteous again.
Any pushback on that, aggression, or refusal to leave the subject alone ... & I'd have to let her know she was out of line so I am taking a break - then block her forever.

But I am long in the tooth & my own people-pleasing days are now behind me (So I do appreciate your pain & frustration).
You might enjoy this book OP - www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Your-Own-Right-Assertiveness/dp/0704334208?tag=mumsnetforu03-21