....to think my daughter's class has a right to a qualified teacher?

[pokemeinthemorning]

So we had a message tonight on the system to explain what is happening in my daughter's year 5 class. Apparently, their teacher will now be teaching another class because one teacher left two weeks ago and they have said they have 'dispensed of any supply staff'. Basically the TA will be teaching the class for the foreseeable future.
I know there are many dedicated and wonderful TA's who could make great teachers BUT we are not qualified to teach classes on a regular basis.
On questioning my daughter I found out that from the start of this year she has her teacher in class 2 days a week and the rest is taken on by the TA. We were not told about this.
As a TA myself, I know that they often cover classes but this is on a regular basis for a prolonged period of time.

I feel that this is very unfair and they should at least be employing supply teachers in the meantime.

YANBU, your daughter and the thousands of children in a similar situation deserve better. Unfortunately schools have no choice but to take these decisions. They have no money and even if they did, there aren’t enough teachers in some areas. My mum is retired now but was contacted by a school she used to do supply for years ago. It shows how desperate schools are.

The responsibility lies with the government, not schools. They are simply trying to do the best with the little they have.

This frustrates me so much. I have applied for Primary education and been rejected due to "lack of experience". Yet I cannot find a job in my area to get experience. I have two children of my own and a first class degree going to waste.
I have been told on several occasions that I am over-qualified for the jobs that I would need for the experienced required...

Been happening for ages all across the country. I'd suggest formally raising it with the head, your local councillor and your MP. Doubt it will make a difference but it might.

@Elephantsparade

And if you have a tight budget making the experienced teachers miserable or managing them out so you can get a much cheaper teacher with less experience also works.

Yep-I’m expensive and if I was to be treated so badly I left, the HT could nearly employ 2 NQTs (it’s not quite double) in my place. Experience sadly isn’t valued when your budget is this squeezed.

@pokemeinthemorning

I understand that many TAs are former teachers but they must be paid much less as a TA. If they are paid less then surely the responsibility shouldn't be the same.

This is true, and even if they are qualified teachers - if working as a TA or HLTA they shouldn't be used as cheap labour to teach a class full time. The school would be taking advantage of them.

I'm a qualified teacher but chose to work,as a HLTA. I do teach much of the week, but I don't have the responsibility of one class the whole time and all that having your own class brings. I work across school, usually teaching my own specialist subject. I will cover the same class for 1-2 days incase of short term sickness cover, but not long term. I'd be wanting to be paid as a teacher if I was stepping into a full time longer term teaching role.

The TA won't be setting, marking, or giving feedback on work.

Many TAs will be marking and giving immediate feedback on work.
This happens even if the TA is in class as a supporting role.
Many will also be taking small group intervention work and will,often be planning and setting the work for them. Whilst this is nominally done under the guidance of a teacher, the reality is that often it is the Ta who,is trained in the intervention and therefore knows the programmes in much more detail and expertise than the teacher.

In this situation:
They will also be delivering the work.
Yes, another teacher may well have set it.

Abraxan

Why have you not put the part of the quote in about them doing it out of good will?

@Benjispruce5

If they had QTS I’m sure the school would make it clear to parents.

Doubtful. Many schools don't publicise their staff qualifications.

Few parents will know that I have QTS and worked as a teacher for several years, before working as a HLTA. That's despite me teaching across school every day and leading a subject for the school.

Infact a number of our TAs have QTS and have done in the last. Others are about to start their teaching qualifications.

@84wood

Responding to a point - how do you know teacher qualifications? A decent school website should list qualifications. I’d ask if there is no information.

No school is expected to list teacher qualifications. I maintain our school website and it does not appear in any of the requirements from a range of sources, including those from the government and OFSTED. In my experience most schools do not list them, especially at primary school. Even then it's almost always only the qualifications of the teachers, not the learning support staff.

@pollymere

There are lots of levels of TA. I'd have no issue with a Level 3 HLTA teaching my child. Many HLTAs are qualified teachers these days too. Care more about experience than qualifications.

HLTA is level 4. A level 3 TA is not a HLTA and should not be used to cover anything other than emergency sickness cover for 1-2 days.

@Endoftether2000

You may have answered this pokemeinthemorning but do TAs get paid anywhere near a Teachers Salary? If not do they get their pay upgraded for Teaching days?

I have never known this to happen in an English school.

[quote cherish123]@appuskidu
Can't find anything online about it being legal but I know HT have said this. I have taught for 20 years across the UK and never seen a TA teach a class.[/quote]
I've taught in a number of schools across England for 25 years now, in both secondary and primary. In every school I have seen TAs teaching and covering classes. Myself included, as I now choose to work as a HLTA. I teach every single day.

Qualified teachers have the right to dignity at work. Which is why they are leaving the profession in their droves.

@FrippEnos

Abraxan

Why have you not put the part of the quote in about them doing it out of good will?

Because doing it through goodwill doesn't really come into it. It's almost always just an expectation that it's part of the job, in my experience and in that of the friends I know who teacher or are TAs.

Schools are trying to put pressure on ta"s to do the job of teachers. This is disgraceful and nothing short of slave labour. A young person I know who was doing work experience in a school was thoroughly taken advantage of. She said she was left with a group of really badly behaved children, one of whom tried to run Out of the classrom. Several times.
She said the atmosphere was quite hostile and unfriendly. She finished her placement early.

Show's how much I know! I thought Teaching Assistants were there to support children in the class that maybe need that little bit of extra help to understand the lesson, and to support the teacher in preparing the class etc.

I didn't think that TA's were allowed to take a class on their own.

@saraclara

If you are happy for a TA to be teaching, what is the argument for requiring a graduate and QTS?

It's important to recognise that the TA is delivering the teachers work. If she or he was doing the planning, the resource marking and the assessing, then it would be entirely wrong, for them, for the kids and for teachers who've put all the work into training and qualifying.

But as I said before, when my TA took over in my absence, she taught from my planning and resources, she was given an extra TA from another class, and was supported by the other teachers in my department of five classes in the same corridor.

So she really wasn't doing 'my.job'. Valuable as she was, she was 'only' delivering my work and managing the class. And if there were any problems, the other teachers would step up with resources and share their planning with her.

Well, gee, by that standard, why doesn't one teacher 'plan' all the lessons for each year group, and then underpaid TAs can be deployed to teach all the classes and most teachers can be let go. Great for everyone ... oh wait.

Sucks for teachers, perpetually underpaid AND no longer needed in numbers.

Sucks for TAs, even more perpetually underpaid for what they're expected to do in a normal TA role, now being stressed over things they didn't sign up for.

Sucks for state school educated children, who aren't getting the education they deserve because the Tory government doesn't give a shit.

Sucks for parents because who do they talk to now about any of it?

@007Stocko

Show's how much I know! I thought Teaching Assistants were there to support children in the class that maybe need that little bit of extra help to understand the lesson, and to support the teacher in preparing the class etc.

I didn't think that TA's were allowed to take a class on their own.

They're pressured constantly to 'cover' when teachers are off/out, doing PPA, etc ... and told there's no extra money to pay them for the additional responsibility. It's completely unethical and wrong and I know so many TAs are fed up with it and trying to stand firm and say no. But it's hard, because we care about the children, and the leadership teams rely on that to push for coverage without fair pay.

I'm so glad I don't have any children in the education system any more. It seems to be getting steadily worse. My teacher friend worked in the French system (she is french) and can't believe how underfunded the system is in the uk. Also the lack of discipline in schools and the prevalence of disruptive behaviour largely ignored in schools here, left her horrified! She no longer teaches.

I wonder if this ‘oh some TAs are wonderful, better than a qualified teacher’ attitude extends to secondary? Are posters similarly happy with their teen being taught maths by unqualified teachers, or teachers not qualified to teach maths? (This is also a massive issue).

There seems to be a perception of primary teaching as something that doesn’t require any pedagogical knowledge or skill, but simply being good with young kids, and that if you hand a TA a lesson plan, they’ll be able to teach it just fine. I thought that perception had disappeared over lockdown with parents crying ‘I’m not a teacher, I can’t do this’ when presented with work for one child.

I’m a secondary maths teacher, people regularly say ‘god I couldn’t do your job’, particularly as it involves teens. But I am in awe of my primary colleagues and their skills in establishing the foundations that I rely on in my teaching.

We have many of our TAs now teaching. It is poor practice. They have not been trained and it is fairly obvious. They are also stressed out by the whole thing.

I'm a primary school teacher and I've read the entire thread. I'm not going to quote anyone in particular but the situation looks like this currently:

Covid is still having quite a dire impact and due to illness and isolation, we have a lot of supply teachers in. Our budget is in deficit already and it's only November.

Supply teachers are generally in quite short supply, even if there is money for it.

The Ofsted framework currently isn't fit for purpose for primary schools. They are expecting subject leaders (which in small schools teachers, even part time, can have several subjects to lead), to know the complete ins and outs of that subject and how it's taught. Teachers need time out of class for this, so heads are under pressure to use even more supply budget for this or Ofsted will knock us down.
Our TAs are having to cover here and there for this as well.

Ofsted are also being given more money to ramp up inspections, while schools are still grappling with covid.

Teachers and TAs are burned out. Pressure from subject leadership, having to still provide 'quality first' teaching.

Children now have so many more needs post covid. More children with SEND, social and emotional needs with limited budget to support this.

Teachers and TAs are having to deal with these problems and are having to support families much more, essentially doing the jobs of CAMHS and social services due to limited services.

Safeguarding is huge now. Every little thing has to be written up. Discipline is tricky as so much behaviour is down to needs that can't be easily supported, so teachers end up having to tip toe around kids rather than giving them a damn good bollocking.

This is why teachers are leaving, and I don't blame them. I'm part time and incredibly stressed, especially with the last point. I have a child who could easily cause me a lot of damage if he has an outburst, but even with a 1:1 because of his background there's only so much we can do for him. His issues stem from his home life.

It's about time people know the truth and yes, your child shouldn't be taught by a TA, but I'm sure schools are doing absolutely everything they can to prevent this, with probably quite limited resources. It's a shit situation for everyone, basically, and I can't see it getting much better anytime soon.

Yes, your DD SHOULD have a qualified teacher. But unfortunately there are massive issues in teaching right now with teacher working conditions and therefore retention/recruitment.

I'm a primary supply teacher, and since September have never been busier. With covid, everyone is dropping like flies, and with teachers going off with long-term issues such as stress, there just aren't enough supply teachers to go around.

With TAs teaching at primary, no interventions get done. TAs are then possibly teaching classes with groups of children who may not be able to access the lessons where as the teacher would have pitched the lessons differently as the groups would be elsewhere getting targeted help. The children have action plans which are thrown to the wayside, there is a knock on effect all round.

@Jenster03 and @noblegiraffe well said. I also can't see this getting any better any time soon.