To think learning how to behave around dogs should be part of the national curriculum

[Itsadogsworld]

I think schools should teach children how to behave around dogs, canine body language and so on. I think it would significantly reduce the number of children that end up in A&E each year due to dogs bites. I’ve seen some dreadful behaviour in my local park where children will run up to my dog and one child was continually trying to bear hug her own dog. Children clearly aren’t being taught this at home so I think they should include it in schools. I welcome your thoughts on this.

@Maverickess

I am determined to educate - nothing else.

Definitely not a job for schools and teachers - they have enough to do!

In fact we should reduce the amount of stuff that we expect schools to teach and sort out. Let's make them focus on education and leave it at that. Perhaps then all 11 year olds will leave primary school able to read.

YABU

The onus is on the owners to make sure their dogs are on a lead, well trained and properly controlled. And that contact with child family members etc is supervised.

You're nuts.

The children pick up the anxiety from their parents, my old skinny lurcher used to walk along on her shaky legs, nose to the ground, totally oblivious and uninterested in humans, yet the amount of times, we have had an hysterical young child, or parent to contend with, (so very wearing trying to recall a dog that has gone deaf, and actively trying to avoid any form of human contact) l have even told the parents straight up they need to educate themselves regarding dogs.
Yet another fear the media has manufactured, demonising dogs.

@LampLighter414

YABU

The onus is on the owners to make sure their dogs are on a lead, well trained and properly controlled. And that contact with child family members etc is supervised.

You're nuts.

Don't don't have to be on a lead to be under control

Apologies @Sidehustle99 . The problem is that there's a lot of posters on this thread who seem to think that parents don't have any responsibility to keep their children safe because if their child gets bitten it's the dog owner's fault.

I agree with you that should an attack happen, the likelihood is that it will fall on the dog, but that doesn't actually make the situation the dog owner's fault. It's not the fault of a dog owner if they're minding their own business and some idiot thinks their child should be allowed to run up to any animal it feels like.

If a child is harmed because their parent allows them to approach and torment an unknown animal, as far as I'm concerned that is the parent's fault and they are negligent. No responsible parent would put their child in that situation. It's concerning how many posters on this thread seem to think they have very little responsibility for their child's safety.

If a child is harmed because their parent allows them to approach and torment an unknown animal, as far as I'm concerned that is the parent's fault and they are negligent. No responsible parent would put their child in that situation.

What do you mean by ‘tormenting’? Most children don’t intend to cause distress to a dog, they’re either too young to understand you shouldn’t approach a dog or they don’t realise some dogs startle and snap.

IMO it’s ALWAYS the dog owner’s fault and lack of responsibility if a child gets bitten in public. If your dog is nervous of children and likely to snap, you muzzle it. I say that as a dog owner. My large breed is fortunately well socialised with children and tolerant. But I’ve lost count of the toddlers and just-walking babies who’ve tottered into him, stepped on his paws, grabbed his fur. A small child once tried to climb on his back while we were in a queue, another time a baby leaned out of a buggy and grabbed his ear on the bus. It only takes a split second for a parent to look away and an infant to grab at your dog or walk straight into it.

Any dog taken to a public place un-muzzled needs to be unflappable and trustworthy around small humans. Because… children take priority over dogs.

There are no requirements to have your child on a lead in any place, there are no parks or beaches with child bans. Kids may be clumsy, impulsive and inquisitive but they don’t attack people. Even if someone startled them or trips over them, no child attacks out of shock/fear/rage.

Most parents I know and see are responsible, they teach their children how to behave around animals. But some children are too young to understand/remember, or have SEN, or simply forget to look out for nervous dogs when they’re running ahead or playing together. A parent can’t have eyes on constantly, even a helicopter parent can get momentarily distracted.

A child who is harmed by a dog in a public place… do you really think it was the parents responsibility for letting them approach an unknown dog? Did the parent even see the dog, or predict their child might try to touch it?

Public spaces are supposed to be safe for children. Bringing snappy, poorly socialised dogs into these spaces is asking for trouble. As a dog owner you’re responsible for your dog’s behaviour.

*What do you mean by ‘tormenting’? Most children don’t intend to cause distress to a dog, they’re either too young to understand you shouldn’t approach a dog or they don’t realise some dogs startle and snap.

IMO it’s ALWAYS the dog owner’s fault and lack of responsibility if a child gets bitten in public.*

Totally agree.

@speakout

*What do you mean by ‘tormenting’? Most children don’t intend to cause distress to a dog, they’re either too young to understand you shouldn’t approach a dog or they don’t realise some dogs startle and snap.

IMO it’s ALWAYS the dog owner’s fault and lack of responsibility if a child gets bitten in public.*

Totally agree.

I said upthread that a child approached my dog and tried to kick her in the face. Had she bitten him, how would that have been my fault?

I think the only things schools should teach children about dogs is that owning one is worse for the environment than driving two Range Rovers.

@Moonface123

The children pick up the anxiety from their parents, my old skinny lurcher used to walk along on her shaky legs, nose to the ground, totally oblivious and uninterested in humans, yet the amount of times, we have had an hysterical young child, or parent to contend with, (so very wearing trying to recall a dog that has gone deaf, and actively trying to avoid any form of human contact) l have even told the parents straight up they need to educate themselves regarding dogs. Yet another fear the media has manufactured, demonising dogs.

Please tell me this is a reverse or a windup...

What do you mean by ‘tormenting’? Most children don’t intend to cause distress to a dog, they’re either too young to understand you shouldn’t approach a dog or they don’t realise some dogs startle and snap.

If they're old enough to understand that you don't approach an unknown animal, the parent needs to teach them this so they don't approach.
If they are too young to understand that you don't approach an unknown animal, surely the parent is a responsible adult and prevents them from approaching unknown animals.

Maybe it's just me, but there's a huge range of dogs and owners out there and a huge range of personalities. There's no way I'd be allowing my DC to run up or grab random animals just based on an idea of what a stranger's dog should be like. Why on earth would I put them at risk?

Replace 'strange unknown animal' with another danger, such as busy roads.
If a child is old enough to be taught not to charge into the road, then parents teach them not to charge into the road. It doesn't matter that the drivers should see them and stop. If a child isn't old enough to be taught not to run into the road, then most responsible parents do all they can to prevent their children running into the road because they're not useless.
Based on the dog logic on this thread from some posters, nobody has any responsibility to teach their children road safety because drivers should stop, and anyway some children are too young so parents can't help allowing their children to run into a main road.

I'd not be putting my child's safety in the hands of a stranger and an unknown animal.

Dog owners can protest all they like.

If a child is bitten it is legally the owner's fault.

IMO it’s ALWAYS the dog owner’s fault and lack of responsibility if a child gets bitten in public

I think that statement applies in the home, where most children are bitten. There are certainly no shortage of rubbish dog owners but how would I have taken steps to prevent the situation I described in my post at 11.40. My dog didn't bite but he was certainly provoked. I did learn to keep as far away as possible from any children to protect my dog but who would imagine a situation like that could happen. I did absolutely nothing wrong but if my dog had bitten he would have been PTS.

Dog owners can protest all they like.
If a child is bitten it is legally the owner's fault.
I've already acknowledged that.

But it's a fairly shitty, irresponsible parent who places their child in an avoidable, potentially dangerous situation on the grounds that should their child end up attacked by a dog they can say 'well the law says it's the owner's fault'.
Could you imagine talking to your child and having to say 'I didn't bother to teach you how to behave around dogs, let you charge up to any dog you wanted, and just hoped the dog was friendly and the owner would sort it if the dog got scared... sorry you got bitten and are scarred for life, but technically in law it wasn't my fault'?

I'd rather be a responsible parent than be sitting with my child in A&E with a life changing injury.

If a child is bitten it is legally the owner's fault.

What comfort is that if your child is seriously hurt? What you think is statement of fact about an owners responsibilities misses the point. Responsible dog ownership and educating children about how approach (or not) dogs should be a collaborative effort to minimise harm.

What comfort is that if your child is seriously hurt? What you think is statement of fact about an owners responsibilities misses the point. Responsible dog ownership and educating children about how approach (or not) dogs should be a collaborative effort to minimise harm.
Very, very well said.

Based on the dog logic on this thread from some posters, nobody has any responsibility to teach their children road safety because drivers should stop, and anyway some children are too young so parents can't help allowing their children to run into a main road

Interesting comparison! I think most parents ensure children are holding their hand near a main road. Traffic is a danger we live with. Should we view all dogs as a hazard too and make children hold our hands or stay on reins in case they brush past or bump into a nervous snappy dog, even in the countryside far from roads and cars?

Should the same logic apply in parks, beaches etc, supposedly safe spaces where children can run around? If dogs are as dangerous and potentially fatal as traffic, then perhaps they should be on leads, muzzled or banned from parks and beaches altogether?

Surely an owner is not to blame for their dog biting someone else if the dog was provoked, and the owner shown not to be negligent in anyway?

Been Googling, and that is what it came up with.

XenoBitch

The fact of ownership of a dog makes the owner responsible.

Because who else could be responsible? The victim? The dog?

Children don't always provoke dogs in a hostile or agressive way.
They may just be clumsy, fearful, enough confusion to make a dog agressive.
A child is no match for a dog.
Set against another 3 year old a child may get a scratch or a bump on the head with a toy.
If a dog decides to attack a child outcomes are very different.

@XenoBitch

Surely an owner is not to blame for their dog biting someone else if the dog was provoked, and the owner shown not to be negligent in anyway?

Been Googling, and that is what it came up with.

What does provocation involve?

Depending on the dog and how trained and cared for etc, dogs can bite in response to all sorts of things.

Bit hard to say where provocation begins? I'd have thought. Given that no one knows what dogs are thinking.

When children are injured or killed there's a reason the dog did it. A dog might feel provoked by... Well all sorts of things. I don't see what the point of that post is.

Is anyone else old enough to remember when there were random dogs about the place? Not strays but just left to wander about? That freaked me out as a child after an incident while out by myself aged about 9 when a massive... German shepherd/ Alsatian type dog came along and stood glaring at me and growling really aggressively teeth bared etc. We had a stand off for what felt like ages.. It was way bigger than me.

I think I was lucky turns out had bitten owner, postman, and a couple of others. Didn't report so much then.

In the end. If a small child annoys a dog and the dog kills the child. Maybe a toddler just bimbling too close and not being off with growling etc. Maybe at home or a friend home etc.

Then in the end I don't think blaming the child and that's the end of that is the right approach.

*What does provocation involve?

Depending on the dog and how trained and cared for etc, dogs can bite in response to all sorts of things.

Bit hard to say where provocation begins? I'd have thought. Given that no one knows what dogs are thinking.*

I agree.

" provocation " may involve many things- not always harming the dog.
Being jumpy, nervous, acting like prey, being unsure, skittish, jerky random movements, sudden noises, acting submissively, body language that is unknown to the dog- all of these may be exhibited by a child and enough to make a dog attack.

Dog owners can protest all they like.

If a child is bitten it is legally the owner's fault.
This simply isn't true (though frankly, I wish it was).

In most circumstances, to establish liability on behalf of the owner, the claimant will need to demonstrate that the dog had a known propensity to attack. This means that dogs generally get at least one 'free' bite. However, I can be very difficult for a claimant to prove any dog has previously, unless the dog is familiar to them.

@CheeseMmmm

I mentioned it as I wanted to know where I would stand if my dog had bitten the kid that tried to kick her in the face. I keep getting told here that it would be my fault, even though she would have been provoked, and we were just walking past minding our own business. She was also on her lead.
Thankfully, she hid behind me and I went home to cry as I hate any confrontation.