To wonder why supermarket jobs pay more than care jobs

[Apacheshadows]

Hospitality pays more too. Costa coffee £9.36 starting salary, Aldi £9.50, some bars and restaurants offer £10 per hour, plus tips I imagine.
Asda £10.97 for night shifts.

I used to work nights in a residential home and earned £8.91 per hour (over 25)
Earned £9.30 per hour as a support worker for people with learning difficulties, where we had no private area to take breaks in, food stolen, we were physically and verbally assaulted and didn’t have our own staff toilet.
Now on £9.25.
Supermarket and hospitality work is hard, tiring and stressful so indeed it deserves to be paid more, but I really don’t understand why care and support work is paid even less given what is required.
Considering applying for nights at Asda for £11 an hour, I’d never get that in my current role.

@MissyB1

Do some people not bother watching/ reading the news?? There are massive shortages of care workers!!

But that's not just due to pay. But also Brexit and mandatory vaccination.

Market forces

The hourly rate for care jobs where I live at the moment seems to be £10-£12 per hour. They've had to increase the wages due to lack of people applying.

In terms of childcare it’s easy to see why it’s low paid because there is a cap on what people are able/ willing to pay. To put two children in full time childcare in my area and break even you need to earn £30k a year. If prices increase due to staff wages increasing, some customers will make the decision to care for their children themselves because it is a more financially sound option for them. That decreases demand for childcare, leading to an oversupply of childcare workers and resulting downward pressure on wages. I do think it’s a skilled job and often feel bad that the workers at my son’s nursery are poorly paid (though they are paid more than minimum wage) but that has no bearing on the economics of it. There are enough people with the skills to do childcare work to supply the market.

Care work is probably more complex as a lot of the funding comes from the government and it’s in their interest to keep wages low. The basic problem is still that it’s expensive as a percentage of customer’s income or total assets though and if you increase prices many will be priced out. You could professionalise the industry such that care workers required more qualifications. That would increase barrier to entry and probably increase wages for care workers but also increase prices to the customer. The government would have to pick up a lot of the tab for that and right now it’s hard to see where the funding would come from. There’s already a huge shortfall in funding which they are trying to make up with the NI increase.

The same applies to many jobs. Criminal lawyers are paid a fraction of what corporate lawyers are paid. That’s not because being a criminal lawyer is easier. It’s because corporate clients pay more than people accused of committing criminal offences.

Vets are paid less than doctors generally. That is more because there is a cap on what people will pay for their animals than vet med being an easier or lower skilled option.

But it’s a free(ish) market and if women are in low paid demanding roles maybe they should look around and find something better paid or with better conditions. That would likely have the effect of driving up wages in the sectors they left.

@ButtonSister

Market forces

If that was the case care workers would be paid much more as there's a chronic shortage of them- demand isn't meeting supply.

The main problem is that local authorities pay significantly less for every care place than it costs to provide them, so every person paying for themselves is actually part-subsidising a council place. That's why it looks like care companies are taking in huge amounts - in reality they are only just breaking even (I work for a not for profit, no idea how private companies who also take out a profit make it work). This is why there are more and more companies handing contracts back to councils - it us simply impossible to deliver them for the price paid. And the reason the councils are paying so little is that their budgets have been cut to a ridiculous degree by the government. So no-one actually affected by the problem has the ability to change it, and the government won't.

Not sure about all supermarkets but night rate in Asda is only paid between midnight and 5am so not as much extra as people think. Overtime and bank holiday/Sunday is normal rates not time and half or double time unike many places

Supermarkets actually run at quite a low profit margin but staff costs are a lower percentage of their overall costs than in care /childcare. A major cost for supermarkets is their stock and much of that is produced overseas by people making much less than £9. / hour. Paying more to UK staff gives the ability to attract slightly better more motivated staff with minimal increase in overall costs.

For care work, staff is a major cost and a small increase in staff wages either dramatically increases cost to the customer or decreases profit margin. And care is not a high profit industry.

@happytoday73

Why do supermarkets make more money than care homes though? Because when I look at the fees charged and how much staff are paid there is a huge gap.. Obviously there is gas, electric, water, insurance, food etc... But it still feels like there should be a healthy profit to be had... I know there isn't.... But don't understand why

Well firstly because not everyone pays the same, someone who has their fees paid by the LA pays less than a private funded resident because the LA sets what they'll pay and that's it, regardless of the actual fees. There's also the cost of running a business with rates and the like, and being registered doesn't come cheap as doesn't meeting the bare minimum standards with equipment like hoists and such. The people in care aren't purely paying for care out of their fees, they're paying the majority of their costs of living as well which would have to be met while they're alive regardless, even down to council tax and TV licence, fixing the broken boiler or washing machine..... All costs of living. Things like clothes are not included, or toiletries but then they do have to be factored in for those who's families don't provide them, and sadly some just don't and we can't not wash people or have them wearing ruined clothing - that's bad practice and often falls to carers and other families donating things to cover. And wrt to gas and electric etc, the costs of keeping hot water and heat available constantly, the cost of lights and equipment needed 24/7 are probably a lot more than you would think. Every person in my home has an air flow mattress - they're not cheap to start with and need electric 24/7 for example. And then yes, there's profit to consider, who is going to run a business where there's little to no profit available if you plough it all into paying more for the essentials? Staff costs are an area that can be cut, so they will be, regardless of the concequences. People don't want the responsibility and hard work involved in care work for the minimum rewards, it wouldn't even be so bad if people would appreciate the contribution it makes to a functional society, but we're written off as unskilled and worthless by many. Those seeking jobs are pushed into it because the bar is so low for entry, yet then expected to reach high standards with minimal training and support. It's a damned mess.

@Ricetwisty but it's not as simple as supply and demand for labour when you are comparing public sector (care work) and private sector (supermarkets). Yes there is a shortage of care workers and more money is needed to attract people into the profession. But it's local government and the nhs that foot the majority of the bill for care work and they just don't have the money to offer better wages.

They work you to the absolute bone, in a supermarket, everything is timed, every second counts. You generally have to be really fit, l am an online picker, 53, and alot of the younger staff that start, leave after a few weeks, just cant hack it. No better on nights, its crazy what they expect them to do.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

Honestly? Because more men work in supermarkets and they can't get away with having a different wage for women anymore.

I agree. Care work and early years work is mostly women earning minimum wage (or as the news has reported, sometimes less than nmw). I think the work itself is valued by society, the problem is that women are not valued as they should be.

All the men I know would refuse to work for those wages.

@happytoday73

Why do supermarkets make more money than care homes though? Because when I look at the fees charged and how much staff are paid there is a huge gap.. Obviously there is gas, electric, water, insurance, food etc... But it still feels like there should be a healthy profit to be had... I know there isn't.... But don't understand why

Because there are loads of things you're missing from your costs:

Mortgage/Rent
Council Tax/rates
Gas
Electric
Water
Internet
Equipment - from bandages and plasters to hoists and special beds, mobility aids etc.
Staff training
Bed linen, furnishings
Cleaning equipment - from sprays to vacuums to mops and dusters.
Enough staff to manage shifts while maintaining ratios.
Uniforms and PPE - masks, gloves etc.
Laundering costs.
Food for residents.
Cleaners.
Paying into pensions and NI for staff.
Vehicle expenses for carers who go into the community.

Then, you have to factor in the fact that most people don't pay for all of their costs themselves - many places are funded by the LA and will cause the care companies to be out of pocket, so the costs that a private resident pays will go towards caring for other residents too.

It's expensive to provide someone with 24/7 care. That's rent, board, three meals a day, nursing staff on-call constantly, someone to help them dress, shower, eat, use the bathroom...plus many care homes also provide some level of entertainment - TV's, board games, bingo nights etc.

Because enough people will do it for a low wage.
I know there is a shortage ( Ds doesn't have any support workers because no one is going to the role for the direct payment offered when they can have an easier role for the same amount) but not enough for enough of the general public to be bothered about it enough for it to cause problems.
Basically people don't care about the most vulnerable.

@Ricetwisty
So the market is the problem. Workers are unwilling to supply labour at the price the employers can pay. Employers can't (or won't) offer more because their main source of income - local authorities - simply don't have the budget to fund care services properly. Care providers become increasingly disillusioned and leave the industry because it turns out not to be the easy investment opportunity they thought it to be.

Maverickess that's very insightful. Thank you for sharing. In your opinion, as you seem to have much more of an insight, what would you say is an adequate pay per hour, in order to achieve profit, motivated staff and decent level of care? What should that hourly rate be? I've no clue but interested to know and are there companies out there that actually do run care homes and pay their staff properly?

@CookieDoughKid

I wouldn't begin to know the true value in cash of the things I've listed to be honest, like how much it all boils down to per person or per hour but I think to cover everything from the staff salary (managers, care workers, cleaners, laundry, kitchen, maintenance) to heat, light, equipment (and little things that people don't take into account to like nappy bags for used pads, batteries for TV remotes, hoover bags..... Pennies really to buy but not when you times that by 20 people for 365 days a year for example) it's a lot more than most people expect it to be.
It would be similar I guess to an all inclusive hotel for a week with food and laundry included and then adding the care needs on top.
How much would you expect to pay for a weeks stay somewhere with all bills included so that basic needs are met without extra outlay?
Then adding in the cost of care needs on top - bearing in mind that if someone needs two carers then obviously that's going to cost more to pay them both.

If you're asking about what care workers 'should' be paid, well I don't think it starts with pay, if I had more 'benefits' from my employer then nmw wouldn't be so bad to cope on. Things like providing uniforms and washing them on site, funding DBS certificates, sick pay at full pay rather than SSP, paid training (or at least not having to pay for it), all hours worked paid (there's an expectation in even the best places and within nursing that staff arrive 15 mins before their start time to receive handover - unpaid) paid breaks - especially if there's nowhere away from the floor to take them and you're expected to respond to needs on your break, and enough staff to deliver the care that's expected is the Biggie!
Some companies offer some of the above, and some none, very few offer all. My place pays us for breaks, which we rarely get in their entirety, but it's considered a 'perk' to be paid for a break you don't get.
But overall I'd say £10-12 an hour depending on the setting (a residential home is very different to an EMI unit and a nursing home or unit different again) and then £12-15 for seniors who have more responsibility such as administration of medication, making decisions on calling in HCPs, detailing care needs and writing care plans, running the shift with the staff your responsibility too.

There are some care providers who put caring for people first and look after their staff, they tend to be IME small ones where the owner is also the manager and work on the floor, not tucked away in an office somewhere. They often don't have fancy decor or purpose built places, worn out carpets and maybe look a bit 'shabby' on the surface, but they tend to put money into menu's for residents, feed staff on duty, pay them a bit more and pay for uniforms etc, pay a bit more for nights and weekends or bank holidays and In return most staff in those places stay and are loyal, are willing to cover shifts when needed so they don't need to call on agency staff and more willing to go above and beyond because they feel valued.

Care workers really deserve to be paid so much more. It's such a thankless, demanding job and the sheer amount of responsibility they carry.

Good care costs money. Most people wouldn't be happy with a significant increase in their council tax

This.

All the time central govt funding to local government is being cut, the amount that will be paid for social care will be kept to the absolute minimum. Consequently, the care home companies will keep wages to the bare minimum to protect their profits.

The same may apply to TA salaries, if they're not on national pay & conditions.

But this is what people voted for, and we live in a democracy, so we get what people voted for.

Because there are idiots out there who are willing to do care work for minimum wage. If everyone said NO... the care sector would have no choice but to pay higher wages which more accurately reflect the job and all it entails. But people keep doing this difficult job for min wage. They then say how they don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the job but they then spend their whole working life complaining about how they are underpaid and undervalued.

P.S. I know a few people who work in supermarkets, its also quite a tough job and not one I would want to do day in day out. They earn every penny they get imo.

I really could of written this post among many others I'm sure!

When i was childminding. I had a couple of parents use me for childcare as it was cheaper than paying for a cleaner..

@AlbusDumbledore2234

Because there are idiots out there who are willing to do care work for minimum wage. If everyone said NO... the care sector would have no choice but to pay higher wages which more accurately reflect the job and all it entails. But people keep doing this difficult job for min wage. They then say how they don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the job but they then spend their whole working life complaining about how they are underpaid and undervalued.

P.S. I know a few people who work in supermarkets, its also quite a tough job and not one I would want to do day in day out. They earn every penny they get imo.

They are saying no, and that's not resulting in higher wages it's resulting in people not getting care. The companies putting their wages up are the ones that are keeping them. The others are handing back care contracts or closing.

Nice attitude towards care workers btw - your attitude is part of the problem, not the solution.

Because councils subcontract care work to the private sector and go for the lowest tendered price usually.

Until we stop voting Tory, all caring jobs (nhs, carers, teachers, nursery staff, I could go on) will forever be underpaid.