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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Red v white poppies

364 replies

Malhao · 11/11/2021 00:33

AIBU to be unimpressed that the staff at school are trying to sell my kids red poppies without explaining the symbolism behind them?

I don't agree with the concept of war and am contemplating sending them in wearing white poppies (I've explained the difference to them and they both agree with the principles behind the white poppies) but wonder if they'll get picked on for standing out?

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 11/11/2021 08:38

The British armed forces are now a volunteer force. Anyone who's joined since 2003, when the Iraq war began, signed up knowing they might go off to fight there. So it's not quite true that no one had a choice about fighting that war.

Yourstupidityexhaustsme · 11/11/2021 08:39

Jesus Christ, not everything needs to be a political stance.

We wear a red poppy on the 11th November to commemorate the lives of the children who died in WW1 and the young men who died in WW2.

16/17 year olds (and younger) who fought mustard gas and disease, lice and rats before they had even faced the bombs and bullets of the front line.

Don’t like war? Neither did they but they went and they fought for democracy and they died so that we would have choices.

Support the British Legion or don’t but don’t ‘refuse to wear a red poppy because it supports war’ a red poppy represents the endless graves in France.
‘On Flanders Fields the poppies grow, between the crosses row on row.’

You can wear a white poppy by all means, not wear a red one but don’t shit on people who so and don’t shit on the memories on those who died for you.

TheFairyCaravan · 11/11/2021 08:39

Was it really only 12 months ago people were calling for the Army to do more and more during the pandemic?

Yes. And only weeks since people were shouting for them to sort out the petrol crisis and the HGV crisis. People will want them picking sprouts for Christmas next….

beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 08:40

@nannybeach

I also wear the purple ones. I knit and crochet my own, give some away but we all donate. Surprisingly no-one has asked me about the significance of the purple one
It's animals isn't it. Those animals who went to war, horses, dogs, even in some cases marine mammals experiemented on...

thought more people knew about that. Maybe not.

beigebrownblue · 11/11/2021 08:40

Animals who didn't have a choice.

Currently we don't have the draft in the U.K.
So joining the military as an occupation is a choice for humans.

DameAlyson · 11/11/2021 08:41

The red poppy has nothing to do with the blood shed. It’s to represent the red poppies growing in Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Written in 1915 by John McCrae, a Canadian doctor who served in Flanders.

HarrietsChariot · 11/11/2021 08:41

Wearing a red poppy is an act of rememberance and a condemnation of the futility and idiocy of war, above all the condemnation of the lives war costs, the lives lost on all sides that are fighting and the civilian lives lost.

Wearing a white poppy is a statement that you reject the symbolism of the red poppy, i.e. you don't believe in the futility and idiocy of war, and you don't care about the lives lost.

I don't agree with the enforced poppyism, especially when it seems to last a good two or three weeks, but I'll wear one on 11th (today) and Rememberance Sunday because I believe war is bad.

ArabellaScott · 11/11/2021 08:41

@PyongyangKipperbang

I dont wear a poppy at all in honour of my grandfather who didnt and asked me not to (he served in WWII and his reasons are very valid) but if I did I would wear both the red and the white together.
That sounds honourable and sensible.

Mixed feelings about poppies. I am happy to honour the dead and bravery of the forces. Not happy to prop up the military-machine. And sadly poppies have become a thing that is used as a propaganda tool. On balance, though, I think the fact that the MoD tries to cynically hijack what was a beautiful symbol shouldn't be allowed to spoil what they originally stood for.

fieldmarshallzhukovscoat · 11/11/2021 08:41

"What do you think would happen if we didn’t have people who were happy to join up? Your precious kids would be made to, that’s what. So be grateful that people like my husband did, and my son has, hey?"

What TheFairyCaravan said - with bells on.

My husband and myself served 22 years plus each in various 'cold' and 'hot' wars. We did it willingly and lost 'brothers/sisters in arms' on the way. Without a voluntary professional fighting force, your children would probably face a period of conscription at the age of 18 because I can't think of a single nation that doesn't have a defence force of some sort regardless of political direction. Unpalatable I know but it's reality.

Not everyone will agree with every conflict this country is involved in however, remembering history, and remembering the fallen with sadness and self reflection is what today is all about. Not glorifying war.

Let them wear their white poppies and let them explain why to their peers at school - everyone will learn something new that day I am sure....but at least explain what the red one actually means.

We will remember them.

Owlmeow · 11/11/2021 08:42

@dreamingbohemian

The British armed forces are now a volunteer force. Anyone who's joined since 2003, when the Iraq war began, signed up knowing they might go off to fight there. So it's not quite true that no one had a choice about fighting that war.
I agree broadly, the vast majority do sign up because they want to, but many who join are from deprived backgrounds, or their hometowns don't offer many opportunities so it's their chance to 'escape' and pursue a career with real prospects to progress. Although it's free choice, sometimes to many it's one of the only choices that gives them a chance of a different future to their parents. It's complex sometimes, but as the government does fuck all to address inequality, here we are.

The military doesn't just fight either, in fact during peace time, ie now, that's only a small tiny part of what they do- but people are ignorant to it.

Brefugee · 11/11/2021 08:43

Why a poppy? Why not some other flower?

Oh god. No. Really? It is because of battles like Paschendale or the Somme where on one day 20,000 young men died on one day in fields of poppies (it was in June)
That is why the poppy was chosen, it is very symbolic.

Incidentally, countries like Belgium, France and Poland have a national holiday on 8th May (VE Day) to celebrate the end of the war. Deafening silence in the UK, thousands of whose citizens believe they single handedly socked it to Gerry to win the war. Both of them. And today they will lay wreathes and commemorate the end of WW1.

Jingoism only wins if you let it. Many people wear the red poppy alongside the white, or one or either. And with or without the purple one. It's a free country, you choose.

Gelpennen · 11/11/2021 08:43

I’m not sure you can just opt out of the concept of war OP….

Ozanj · 11/11/2021 08:43

White poppies are just fashion statements nothing else while red poppies raise money for charity. Don’t donate if you don’t want to but don’t raise them believing that you’re somehow superior for not having one.

notimagain · 11/11/2021 08:44

They weren’t conscripted. If you take a job like being a soldier these days you’re aware of the risks and have made an active choice to be involved in killing other people

As long as you are consistent and won’t accept these volunteers assistance when they come to the aid of the Civil powers (adding the NHS in various roles in the last year plus, helping with flood protection, etc) then that’s a fair enough POV.

DameAlyson · 11/11/2021 08:46

some newspapers do seem to lean in to the whole "dulce etc decorum est" thing around this time of year

Dulce et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Wilfred Owen

Doesn't anyone study the war poets any more?

Brefugee · 11/11/2021 08:49

I'm seeing a lot of what Kipling wrote about here in this thread.
To all fellow veteran - I raise a glass on the evening of the 11th to all the fallen and those who have served. I'll think of you then.

And for those who were calling for the Army to drive the HGV trucks, and who were tested by the Army folk etc

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

BiBabbles · 11/11/2021 08:50

My family have felt red poppies that say Never Again on them. We might stand out but it works for us.

I got them after a discussion with someone involved with Veterans for Peace UK about the history of veterans protesting for their needs and the needs of the dependants of those who died, how some of the first poppies and protests had Never Again in part because of the issues around that, and their discomfort around the commercialization of Remembrance Day with many of the symbolism and language around it had made it harder to discuss the issues of modern warfare.

I know my DD1 (14) has had d comments from her peers that apparently it made no sense to have Never Again since WW2 and later wars happened. I think it's sad at their age, with these topics having been taught over the years, that they didn't know that Never Again is meant to be a hope for the future that people have long had it's why there were conscientious objectors watching out for planes and helping to put out fires when they chose not to go to the war front who equally deserve to be remembered - and that it's sad that it's not a current reality, not something to rub in someone's face.

White poppies are just fashion statements nothing else while red poppies raise money for charity.

Official white poppies also raise money for charities for victims of war, it's just not centralized into one charity like official red poppies, and there are plenty of unofficial versions of all poppies that don't do much charity wise.

mustlovegin · 11/11/2021 08:50

YABVU OP Biscuit

I bet you don't have any family member or close friend who served in the military. You also appear to lack empathy and need educating

So joining the military as an occupation is a choice for humans

Yes, and these 'humans' are the ones who are prepared to make huge sacrifices in order to protect civilians like you

TheFairyCaravan · 11/11/2021 08:51

They weren’t conscripted. If you take a job like being a soldier these days you’re aware of the risks and have made an active choice to be involved in killing other people.

That might be so, but the vast majority of armed forces personnel go through their careers without killing anyone. However, I bet you’d be quite happy for a soldier to come between you and a terrorist.

ODFOgrinch · 11/11/2021 08:51

Good grief.
White poppies on Remembrance Day is the equivalent of yelling 'all lives matter!' At a BLM rally. Of course all lives matter but BLM is about highlighting the particular needs of one group and it is wrong to dilute that work by overlaying a general message.
It isn't that the message of the white poppies is wrong, but that on Remembrance Day we remember specifically those who lost their lives fighting for us. To insist on white poppies is to disrespect them and the work of the British Legion.

mustlovegin · 11/11/2021 08:55

I’m not sure you can just opt out of the concept of war OP

^This

If we are under attack, we can simply shout 'gentle hands' 'be kind' 'we don't do war in this country' and the attacker will simply go away...Hmm

Some people do live on fantasy land, for sure

mustlovegin · 11/11/2021 08:56

Off to buy some more RED poppies

MRex · 11/11/2021 08:56

People in the armed forces risk their lives every day around the world in peacekeeping roles, they support this country in any crisis whether flooding, covid testing, driving ambulances or carrying the dead in hospitals during the height of the covid crisis. Did you forget the much-lauded early vaccine logistics was done by the military? It is a career, but one in which they frequently place their own lives at risk by agreeing to go wherever the ruling government sends them to serve this country. Poppies honour those who died in the initial world wars, and also honour those who died more recently in service of this country. The Falklands War, Afghanistan, Balkans, Iraq, Libya, Congo etc etc etc. If you don't think a particular war is appropriate then lobby your MP, but it's naive to think the country doesn't need a military and it's insulting to the serving military and to three memory of those who died to be provocative about wearing only a puppy supporting a different charity. I think you should educate yourself OP, before you continue to misinform your children.

Franklyfrost · 11/11/2021 08:57

@ODFOgrinch

That’s partly the point, I do disrespect the British Legion. First off the government should look after the people it sends to war, not the British legion. Secondly, there’s nothing noble about being paid to kill in wars that are clearly necessary, have since been proven illegal and caused thousands upon thousands of civilian deaths. I feel the thing we should be remembering today is how tragic war is, how it destroys lives and should be avoided.

MRex · 11/11/2021 08:57
  • the not three
  • poppy, not puppy!!