To tell DM she needs to abide by our rules

[User154871]

Hi, sorry in advance for the long post. I've posted about my DM before on the Stately Homes thread. She is narcissistic and an alcoholic. My sister is NC and I want to continue a relationship with her but put boundaries in place to protect us.

We fell out earlier over a small issue of her kissing the baby. I'm due next week, she will be visiting people in another hospital and I said something like 'potentially don't kiss the baby right after coming from a hospital'.

She told me 'I could think again and that she had rights to kiss and hug her grandchild whenever she wanted'.

I shouldn't have responded really - I told her 'you will have the rights we decide you have'. She put the phone down.

She has previously made comments about disregarding our food choices, dummies etc. She wants to do a lot of childcare which will not be happening (but I've avoided the question rather than responding as she sees it as a challenge to overcome if you argue...I was just trying to grey rock). She also has offered to drive us home from the hospital. This will not be happening as she regularly drives over the limit and has no intentions to cut back on her alcohol use (another reason why she will be supervised with the baby and not do childcare).

I've just received a long email telling me that 'Motherhood is not about being in control. She will accept our rules even if she thinks we are wrong but that we need to accept her rules and ideas too.'

AIBU? I wasn't planning on having this conversation at all for a while as it seems silly to make rules about an unborn baby; but I don't know whether she has a point about my need for control. I do have anxiety and like to be in control - mostly because she was always unpredictable and sometimes scary when drunk when I was a child. But now I'm questioning everything and doubting myself. Advice would be much appreciated!

Once your baby is here I doubt meeting your dm will even be in your train of thought as a good idea...
Your dgm presumably isn't like your dm.

My dc are not deprived because they don't see my manipulative dm...
As their dm it was my job to protect them from her..
As will be your logic soon enough op..

Your mum sounds like a nightmare. Your child = your rules. Grandparents rights are a myth, especially for a drink driving narcissist

YABU - say nothing.

Withdraw completely.

This all you need to 'say' and all she needs to hear.

Cut the Gordian Knot.

She's crafty, isn't she? She is reframing your rights as the mother around the rights of the baby. She's articulate so she knows how to make a good argument. Doesn't make her right, and worse, does make her completely insensitive to you and your needs.

He is supportive but he's much more inclined to wait till she does something so we have a stronger argument to convince the rest of my family that we aren't just being horrible if we go LC.

No no. This is your decision - his job is to support what you decide.

But also. Yes she sounds utterly manipulative. Do not let her distract you with whataboutery.

The absolutely key point here is that an abusive parent makes an abusive grandparent.

'No darling, you don't need to listen to silly Mummy, she doesn't know best!'

'Don't let Mum tell you you can't stay out. You tell her that Granny said that if she doesn't let you, you can come and stay with Granny as long as you like.'

'You can't tell me what to do. I will go live with Granny, she loves me more than you!'

You see?

That's how it goes with parents like this.

She will absolutely DELIGHT in your baby because, if you are daft enough to allow a relationship between them, she will 100% use it to groom your child to become a weapon against you, and a way of making sure - once a relationship is there and she has the child eating out of her hands with her sweets and treats - that you can NEVER cut her off or keep to boundaries. 'But I want to see Granny!'

As for your family slating you. Well, once it's both of you and not just your poor sister voting with their feet, it's going to be a lot harder for your family to be all poor mum, isn't it? Clearly there is something really wrong (they know there is already, of course).

And you and your sis can support each other.

It's very difficult to consider going NC with your mother, OP. You don't need to feel responsible for her, but if it makes you feel better to have contact on your own terms, with firm boundaries in place, then perhaps that's what you should do, if you can mange. I hope you have a good birth and a wonderful baby.

"The rest of my family are people pleasers who are scared of her rages or just try to keep the peace."

Were these same people around when she was failing to parent you and your sister? There are no innocent bystanders in child abuse.

If they wouldn't protect you, they won't act to protect your child. Whether they support you in doing so is irrelevant.

"He is supportive but he's much more inclined to wait till she does something"

Like what? Something involving actual harm to the child?

@Skeumorph that is a terrifying prospect and you're right.

@Duckrace yes. She's good which makes it very difficult to convince anyone including our family. In the year since my sister cut her off, she has reframed the argument between them so many times. Varying from 'she was nasty to me' to 'I wasn't a perfect parent but...(when drunk)' to 'we were both at fault but I'm not playing her game (NC) anymore'. It has got to the extent that an extended family member, when it came up in conversation, said 'your mum gave me a very balanced account of their argument'. I had a go at the family member making the point that since my sister hadn't talked to anyone else about it, my mum could make it sound incredibly balanced according to her agenda. My sister has said she will play nice at family events but she is just not interested in being involved. I was NC at 18 but eventually got back in contact.

I've written down some of the points made above to reread while I decide what to do. My biggest worry throughout this pregnancy is about repeating my mother's mistakes as a parent. I'm sure I'll make my own, but I never want to be emotionally vicious or scary in the way she was. I'm hoping the therapy will help to stop it and I've told my husband what to look out for (my mum had several postnatal depression and PTSD after my sister's birth).

@BrokenButNotFinished no. He is expecting her to subvert one of our rules in front of us at some point so that we can have specific evidence. She's not going to be unsupervised at any point. I've taken on board your point though.

You might find this website interesting:
www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/FAQ-estranged-parents.html
The author has looked at patterns of behaviour in parents estranged from their children. Lots of recurrent themes.

Thing is, @User154871, it's not a laboratory environment - & some of the harm could be unseen, to the detriment of your parenting ability.
Requiring 'evidence' for people who already don't believe what they're told might well play against you. They don't want evidence - it might require them to do something. Unless it's something significant, it will be dismissed as petty. 🤷‍♀️

I'd go NC now to save myself the upset of dealing with this down the road post birth and I'd tell her why I was doing it . I'd also report her drink driving pass on her details to local police

My Mother cut contact with her toxic MIL after she told my sister to tell her mother to shut up, which being 3 she did.

I wish she had remained in either very low or no contact because my childhood is shaped by feeling like we were disappointments to my Grandmother because we were not boys. This only seemed to apply to us though and not her golden child son who also had daughters but they were the best behaved, got the most awards at school, were just so polite. We have no idea if any of it was true because my Dad was no contact with his brother.

Do not underestimate her potential hold over your child in future. One thing I would be asking yourself is why you care so much about the flying monkeys? (relatives who feel sorry for your mother and do her bidding, you can google it) Why does it matter what they think about you? Why could you not point out that she is in fact an alcoholic, has threatened to disregard any choices you make as a parent. Why are you responsible for her well being and mental health? What positives does she actually add to your life?

You are not responsible for any other adult, including your mother!
She alone is responsible for her actions.,she has made her own choices. She chooses to drink. She chooses to drink and drive… that makes her unsafe. That is not your fault, and please do not accept any responsibility for it.

Your responsibility is to your unborn child. To keep them safe and protect them from danger. And that includes your mother!

The rest of the family are being nasty about your sister because they are all worried that they will have to look after mother if you go NC. You and your sister both NC says an awful lot about your mother, whether people choose to accept it or not. I suspect the family know what she like but choose to have a quiet life…

You and your sister could support each other. Honestly, make a new start for your little family! This woman is toxic and will never change.

I was very interested by your repeated comment that you feel you are “responsible for” your mother.
This is reverse parenting, and it is a common tactic inflicted on children by abusive parents. It is based in guilt tripping and emotional blackmailing, to make the child always consider the parent’s needs and demands rather than the other (normal) way round.
OP, I think you should read “Toxic Parents” by Susan Forward, and also have a course of therapy to address the issue of your mother.
And I am very strongly in team NC, having done that with my own toxic mother when I was 8 months pregnant. I have never regretted it, and it was over 30 years ago now.

"but that we need to accept her rules and ideas too.'"

Her rules & ideas about what?

Your baby-obviously no way?

Would it just be arbitrary rules put in place so that you're not the only one with rules?

I mean I can't think that as an adult there were any rules that I had to abide by that hadn't been put in place as kids & then obviously no longer applied as adults.

If you must see her meet her somewhere neutral so that you can walk away?

Your husband needs to be more supportive.

You are worried about your child not getting a loving relationship with a grandparent the way you did……

Do you think a narcissist is really going to be the warm and fuzzy grandparent?

I think you need to protect your child from your mum

[quote User154871]@BrokenButNotFinished no. He is expecting her to subvert one of our rules in front of us at some point so that we can have specific evidence. She's not going to be unsupervised at any point. I've taken on board your point though.[/quote]
So it isn't enough for him that you have reservations about your batshit mother?

Why are you discussing this with him?
It's your batshit mother.

She is going to add nothing to your childs life, just stress and annoyance.

Why you would want that in your new family life is very strange IMO.

He is supportive but he's much more inclined to wait till she does something so we have a stronger argument to convince the rest of my family that we aren't just being horrible if we go LC.

He wants more evidence?

The fact she's told you in writing you aren't allowed to set boundaries around protecting your newborn child where she's concerned is more than enough.

The fact you are needing counselling to recover from your childhood and ongoing dealings with her is more than enough.

Stop trying to be a 'good daughter' and trying to prove to the rest of the family whoever the hell they are that you are reasonable - you are reasonable! She is not a good mother.

"He is supportive but he's more inclined to wait till she does something so we have a stronger argument to convince the rest of my family that we aren't just being horrible if we go LC."

So he's worried about their reaction?

The reason that they don't want you to go NC is that they'll get your share of shit from her as well as their own.

People who mind don't matter & people who matter don't mind.

@Babdoc

I was very interested by your repeated comment that you feel you are “responsible for” your mother. This is reverse parenting, and it is a common tactic inflicted on children by abusive parents. It is based in guilt tripping and emotional blackmailing, to make the child always consider the parent’s needs and demands rather than the other (normal) way round. OP, I think you should read “Toxic Parents” by Susan Forward, and also have a course of therapy to address the issue of your mother. And I am very strongly in team NC, having done that with my own toxic mother when I was 8 months pregnant. I have never regretted it, and it was over 30 years ago now.

This. Also agree with anyfucker on this. I'd be going NC

You’ve got mental health issues because of your upbringing, and you want to subject your children to her influence?

I would take inspiration from your sister, and go NC

He is expecting her to subvert one of our rules in front of us at some point so that we can have specific evidence

Oh, so he wants to wait until your baby is hurt, and then he will take action?

NC is the only way to go. You cannot have boundaries with someone with NPD, they will not allow it.

I cannot understand why you want this toxic woman anywhere near your child? You are meant to be protecting them, not exposing them to the nastiest person you know.