To tell childs father he can't pick him up this late at night

[Rosesarered22]

Posted here for traffic.

Desperate for some help to do with a co-parenting matter.
Child is 2 years old.
I left his dad at the beginning of the year. He's father and I agreed that he could pick him up at 5.30pm and return him at 7.30pm twice a week.
However, I told him right from the start that he had to cut his overtime as soon as he could so he could pick him up and return him earlier as i felt this was too late for our child to be out.
All this year its been one excuse after the other. People are off with covid, he has to cover. Holidays etc etc. He's actually work hours mean he starts early and finishes early but he chooses to do overtime.
We had mediation a few months ago and even she agreed with me and he was told he had a week to sort something out. This was a couple of months ago and he's done nothing about it and ignored my 2 requests on another conversation about it.
The nights are now dark and cold.
Bit of backstory, he was emotionally abusive and still is. I have written a statement, I am seeking help bit it's all been a long process.
He laughs at me when I say I am his primary carer and in charge of his daily routine. He has parental responsibility the same as me so thinks it's his right to have his son when he wants. Regardless of how it doesn't work.
I took it upon myself to finally write to him to say I was suggesting he now picks him up at 4.30pm and returns him at 6.30pm.
He wrote back saying the best he could do is 5pm till 7pm until after Christmas.
He also has him at the weekends so this isn't his only time with him but im so angry cos he's not thinking about our child at all.
But I can't argue with him. I'm scared to death of him and I know if I just say that's it, child is not leaving the house that late so you can't see him unless yo sort something out, he will flip and I'm in the process of trying to get a non-molestation order so at the moment there is nothing to protect me from his abuse.
He's just gone off with him this evening and he was already so tired and just wanted to stay in and cuddle. He's usually in bed asleep by 7.15pm other evenings and he has phased out of his naps.
But when he comes back at 7.30pm he is cold, and overtired and wired and it throws him out of his routine. He won't go to bed till 9pm and then he's tired the next day and ratty.
I've even resorted to ringing nspcc because I don't know where I stand but this is about the welfare of our child. He's so little still and it's not fair on him.
I'm waiting for a call back from them.
Child arrangements could take months to sort and by then it will be getting warmer again. Meaning my poor little one has to go all winter with these arrangements.
Any advice please.

I think many pop's are being ridiculously harsh. OP's child is 2 years old. Bedtime is bedtime, personally I think 1930 is far too late for bedtime, nevermind the time the father returns the child. Has anyone tried putting a child straight to bed after being out, especially an overtired one?
OP I wouldn't even agree to 1700-1900, I'd be demanding the latest drop of as 1800hrs so you have time to do a bedtime routine.
This is not about he OP, this is about her child and people on here are far too easy to jump down OPs throat because they think she is being unreasonable??? Ridiculous.

You do know that without a CAO he can just keep him if he chooses?

Pick your battles. This isn't one.

Thankyou again for the ones that see it's about what's best for the child. Not the rights of the parent.
He can't have him overnight during the week because he gets up very early for work and would be returning our child at 6am to me to be able to go. Which is why he actually finishes work very early and could quite easily pick him up at 4pm and even get in an extra hours overtime by doing so.
This is why I think he's being unreasonable by not sorting this sooner. He's work are flexible enough that he could even do overtime the other 3 nights a week but just not the 2 nights he has our child but it's not something he wants to do cos he wants the money. He doesn't need it

Anyway, I'm signing out.
I will chose my battles as yes, this is not something I want to have him harassing me over again.
I will agree to 5-7 and see how that goes. I just hate being the one that's left to deal with the tears and tantrums when a 2 year old is over tired and as his mother (who desperately does everything she can to make his life as lovely as possible,) I have no rights

I’ve not voted as I’m on the fence.

It’s important for us to have routines especially young children and it has a knock on effect if your child is going to sleep later and being tired the next day.
However if that’s the best your ex can do due to his working hours then it’s not his fault.

Could he not have the child overnight on those nights?
He could put him to bed at the right time and take him to school/nursery the next day.

Sorry I’ve just seen you’ve answered my question already.

I don't think you're wrong about what is best for him but I do think you're being naive about your legal position.

If your ex gets fed up with you trying to impose restrictions on him ( regardless of how worthy your intentions) and applies for a CAO you're stuffed basically. He'll get 50/50 if he wants and and you can't stipulate any bed times or anything then.

The court will value his contact over your son being tired.

As I said sometimes you need to pick your battles.

Tbh my 2yo was at the childminder until 7.30 on the days I worked so we didn't get home until 8 and bed at 8.30

Are you actually joking!? Ring the NSPCC for what? Don’t waste their time ffs, they have children in ACTUAL danger to worry about.

You could always accidentally let slip that this arrangement is working quite well for you because you get to spend a bit of time with friends

If he's doing it to control you and fuck you off and he thinks bringing your son back earlier will wreck your plans 🤷‍♀️

Firstly, well done for extricating yourself from your abusive relationship. But there are a few things you need to bear in mind here.

You say you encouraged him to have a relationship with your DS, but that relationship then has to be on your terms by the sounds of it I also don't think you realise that if he really wanted to he'd be able to get 50/50 visitation with your DS and the courts wouldn't be taking what time your DS goes to bed into consideration. And you're quibbling over half an hour AND calling NSPCC?? I think perhaps a reality check is in order because this sounds more like points scoring than anything else, and with years ahead of co-parenting you need to learn to pick your battles.

YABVU, sure you’d be moaning if he didn’t want contact or didn’t work so couldn’t pay maintenance. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.

An half an hour later bedtime twice a week isn’t the end of the world, it’s like you’re trying to obstructive but at least you’ll have gave the NSPCC call handler a little light relief inbetwern hearing of actual child cruelty.

Seriously? He is a selfish man

Ask him to keep him later one night you want to go out see how he reacts but then your child might be agitated for him and he would have to deal with it

My ex did this I to him I was in a meeting he called and said he wants to come home are you back? (He was still on school property at the time literally just collected him) I said I'm in a meeting your his dad deal with it yourself and hung up he called again when will it finish I dont know! Hung up again rang again where are you I will bring them too you (I was at the school) I hung up muted my phone till it was over he rang and rang I finally answered and he demanded my location 😅

Twat

Get real OP there are going to be much bigger battles than this ahead

@Willyoujustbequiet

I don't think you're wrong about what is best for him but I do think you're being naive about your legal position.

If your ex gets fed up with you trying to impose restrictions on him ( regardless of how worthy your intentions) and applies for a CAO you're stuffed basically. He'll get 50/50 if he wants and and you can't stipulate any bed times or anything then.

The court will value his contact over your son being tired.

As I said sometimes you need to pick your battles.

No need to fearmonger. Courts do not tend to prefer 50/50 arrangements and orders for such are not often made because 50/50 only generally really works for the child where you have a consistent co-parenting set up with good communication, and where that’s present you don’t need a court order.

@Garriet

I'm not fearmongering. I'm a lawyer and have been through this personally with an abusive ex. There has been a huge increase in shared care/joint lives with orders and they are now viewed as the norm by some of the judiciary in family court.

I think the OP needs to be realistic.

A previous poster suggested that if he is trying to control you this way then turn it around - I agree with this. Give it a couple of weeks and tell him that it will work fine on x date as you’re going out for a couple of hours . See how he responds. If he is actually messing you around this might change his mind.
Otherwise get him ready for bed quietly and calmly as quickly as possible on these nights to minimise the impact. Don’t get frustrated or stressed - this will rub off on your DC.

I don’t think this is an NSPCC matter.

If he gets 50/50 he would have to actually do the work and see the consequences of his actions can you imagine him adjusting his hours to do the school run? because I would refuse a return to me at 6am I would say you want 50/50 school starts at 8.30 breakfast club is at 7am at the earliest carry on and pay for it and I would be going to work on "his" days to make myself less avaliable for him fucking about because having 50/50 means being a parent not just having a fun sleep over then handing over to mum for the rest of it

Your baby you rock it he will sink or swim for the child's sake I hope he swims

Everyone I have spoken too has said that with their arrangements, the courts have ordered the child be back by 6pm no later

I know literally dozens of separated families both personally and professionally. Not a single one has a court order for contact. Never mind one specifying midweek contact no later than 6pm.

6pm is not late in the grand scheme of things. It's not as if dc is under performing at school due to a midnight drop off twice a week.

I suspect if you took this to court you would not get an order in favour of a 6pm curfew: many many jobs don't finish until 5pm so including travel contact might not start until 5.30/6pm.

It sounds like you have a lot of years of co-parenting to manage. Don't let this set a precedent for future arrangements.

[quote Willyoujustbequiet]@Garriet

I'm not fearmongering. I'm a lawyer and have been through this personally with an abusive ex. There has been a huge increase in shared care/joint lives with orders and they are now viewed as the norm by some of the judiciary in family court.

I think the OP needs to be realistic.[/quote]
That’s certainly not consistent then, as it’s far from the case in my area. I think in the last four years of working in the family courts I’ve seen perhaps half a dozen such orders, for the reasoning I gave - children generally do not do well with equal shared care in conflicted families. Those judges who see it as the norm are very much not in line with the research into children’s experiences and welfare.

@UhOhOops

Everyone I have spoken too has said that with their arrangements, the courts have ordered the child be back by 6pm no later

I know literally dozens of separated families both personally and professionally. Not a single one has a court order for contact. Never mind one specifying midweek contact no later than 6pm.

6pm is not late in the grand scheme of things. It's not as if dc is under performing at school due to a midnight drop off twice a week.

I suspect if you took this to court you would not get an order in favour of a 6pm curfew: many many jobs don't finish until 5pm so including travel contact might not start until 5.30/6pm.

It sounds like you have a lot of years of co-parenting to manage. Don't let this set a precedent for future arrangements.

I would tend to agree with this, if it did end up in court I’d be very surprised if 7pm was seen as an insurmountable problem, so as many others have said I think it’s time to pick your battles, because it’s always better not to end up in court in a big argument, especially over something relatively minor.

@Rosesarered22 I have no rights

Correct. You have responsibilities. As does your ex. Your CHILD has the right to have a relationship with both parents, and they can both parent the dc as they see fit during their contact time.

I suspect if you push this there is every possibility he may withdraw from midweek contact and extend weekend contact from Friday at 4pm to Monday to Nursery. How does that sound eow?

The NSPCC??
Give me strength

Can you send DS with pjs etc and then when he comes back he could just go from car to bed?

7:30pm isn't unreasonably late at all. If it is messing up your child's routine that badly then you need to adapt the routine so your child isn't getting overtired so early either sleeping in later or napping during the day which, yes, could be inconvenient if your own working hours also dictate the schedule for the day, but that is the sort of compromise you have to make when split parenting, you can't just do everything to suit you.