To trick someone into eating vegan?

[Idonthatevegans]

Please read my question before getting into a debate about veganism. That isn't really what it is about. It has no impact on my life if someone is a vegan or not, do what you wish.

I got into a discussion with someone recently, and found out that people are often surprised when they find out that there was no meat in the beef pie/ spag bol etc she served. And she gets a kick of that fact they couldn't tell the difference. Honestly I couldn't really, not in something like a spag bol.

I have however, tried quorn a few times in my life, with AWFUL results. I am in the bathroom within 1 hour and very sick for a day after. A 100% vegan meal without meat substitutes ya I'm 100% ok with. But if someone says I made beef pie, I would take them at their word. If I knew the person was vegan I would probably enquire if it was real meat only because I know how awfully I react to it. But if I didn't know that person was a vegan I would take it at face value. Yes it happens every so often I get offered tea around a friends aunt who we popped into or something like that.

To me, a vegan passing of something as meat to people who don't know and can therefore make up their own mind is as bad as me putting chicken stock into veg soup and telling someone it is vegan friendly. Ya the vast majority in both cases won't know the difference in taste or after affect. But both people have been denied the option of having their own choice. One has been tricked into thinking they are eating meat, one has been tricked into thinking they are not. I know there are hugely different moral implications there but both have been tricked when they should not have been.

I really don't want to this to break into a vegan/ non vegan debate. That is all that I got back on my last chat. The person wouldn't actually answer my question about tricking someone, just kept on a barrage of info about how vegan is amazing and that anyone who eat meat was the devil incarnate.

BTW - it's not something I would often say I am allergic to as I usually take how food is called at their face value.

I simply want to know:

AIBU - she can call her pie beef pie, even if it is not beef pie.

YANBU - you should know what you are eating. If it's called beef pie well of course you would expect it to be beef pie

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Which is why I would always politely turn down an invitation to a vegan meal. I can't eat mushrooms, lentils, beans or Quorn so it wouldn't leave much for me to eat and I would worry they thought I was making excuses

Not a problem, I could make you lots of delicious vegan meals with none of those ingredients.

It’s unacceptable not to tell people what they’re putting into their bodies.

A common egg substitute in vegan baking is to use vegan mayonnaise. Works well - I’ve made a few good vegan cakes this way (better with chocolate or banana cake so the flavour is hidden!). The dangerous part about this is of course mustard, which is one of the main allergens. Nobody would ever expect to find mustard in a cake, so probably wouldn’t even think to mention it if they knew it was a vegan a bake, but they certainly wouldn’t expect it in a normal cake.

YANBU, can't stand it when people do that "ha ha see you do like vegan/vegetarian meals". It's a smug attitude.

A relative did this to me once with Quorn hotdogs, honestly didn't have a clue as they also cook meat - but I found out later that they were trying to cut down and well if they called it meat everyone would eat it and yes they did the whole - "see non meat hotdogs taste just as good and are better for you". I'm intolerant to quorn and spent the weekend very ill, it's the same as giving someone food poisoning. Not surprisingly I will never eat anything they cook ever again.

This is bizarre and a totally different issue.

It's morally wrong to knowingly and secretly serve meat, alcohol etc to someone who follows a well known diet without those things.

However if your diet is more specific to you (no quorn, no nuts, no dairy etc) due to allergies or whatever else, it's up to you to check with the host whether those ingredients are present.

It's not about it being non veggie, it's about it containing quorn. It's hardly a rare food to react to in any case.

It's not morally wrong to serve vegan food to meat eaters.

But I also think you should check allergies before cooking for people to avoid reactions like yours to Quorn. And I wouldn't lie and pretend something was meat, I'd be open about what I was cooking.

I agree with this. If I’m cooking for people, I expect them to tell me their allergies, not just to assume I’m a mind reader and will know what they will have a reaction to or I’ll ask. I also would ask someone about their cooking if I am unfamiliar of what it is they are making. I may ask more about what flavours they use it it’s something I’ve made in the past out of interest. It goes both ways imo. You ask someone who is cooking for you if it is a health concern or a flavour you extremely dislike. I also would expect foods to be a bit different if it’s from someone who doesn’t eat meat or certain food products. If they play coy about what’s in their food, I wouldn’t go.

I'm a vegan, and YANBU. Lying about what's in food is always shitty, regardless - to slightly varying degrees depending on whether allergies are involved, vs ethics, vs prejudice, vs preference, etc.

That's a hard equation to work out, but you're still not unreasonable.

@MurielSpriggs My (omnivore) father very regularly chooses to eat the (expensive!) vegan ice cream, and sometimes finishes it, despite there almost always being dairy ice cream available. I'm sure there are people who only prefer non-vegan products, but this is far from universal.

YANBU.

If nothing else, people should know you're using substitutes in case they react to it, like you said.

Also, I rarely eat meat and I'd rather have no meat (there are tons of great meals to make without meat) than use meat susbtitutes.

@BertieBotts

This is bizarre and a totally different issue.

It's morally wrong to knowingly and secretly serve meat, alcohol etc to someone who follows a well known diet without those things.

However if your diet is more specific to you (no quorn, no nuts, no dairy etc) due to allergies or whatever else, it's up to you to check with the host whether those ingredients are present.

It's not about it being non veggie, it's about it containing quorn. It's hardly a rare food to react to in any case.

It's not morally wrong to serve vegan food to meat eaters.

But it is morally wrong to serve up vegan food to meat eaters whilst deliberately telling them its meat, with the express intent to deceive. It really, really is.

@TractorAndHeadphones

An aside but honestly why can’t people cook vegan food that stands on its own? Veganism isn’t about meat substitués

I’m from a vegetarian culture and there are lots of delicious dishes than have been made vegetarian because people know what to do with vegetables. Seriously. Meat isn’t vegetables and vice versa

A lot of us do! My partner and I hate meat substitutes. Not against their existence or anything - just not keen on consuming them personally.

And I'm allergic to nuts and peanuts, mushrooms, and have very limited physical tolerance to soy. We manage! There are so many foods out there, we are lucky to live in this time.

@BertieBotts

This is bizarre and a totally different issue.

It's morally wrong to knowingly and secretly serve meat, alcohol etc to someone who follows a well known diet without those things.

However if your diet is more specific to you (no quorn, no nuts, no dairy etc) due to allergies or whatever else, it's up to you to check with the host whether those ingredients are present.

It's not about it being non veggie, it's about it containing quorn. It's hardly a rare food to react to in any case.

It's not morally wrong to serve vegan food to meat eaters.

It's not the responsibility of guests to watch out for being tricked though. If you were going a vegan's house knowing they served vegan food - fair enough you know to asked. But someone deliberately tricking someone by serving 'beef pie' when there wasn't any beef is lying. Onus is on them. That's morally wrong.

@mrsm43s exactly.
It's the intent to deceive that's the problem here.

The essential difference is that "tricking" vegans involves putting something into the dish and pretending you haven't. "Tricking" omnivores involves leaving something out.

(Unless the trickster has positively vouched that there is no Quorn, soya, tofu or grass clippings therein.)

That's just nasty.

I make a fab shepherds pie using brown lentils, even so id always say to someone whats in it just in case!

@Alltheprettyseahorses

It's not tricking someone not to feed them a dead animal! As a guest you are responsible for informing your host of any allergies, it's not like going to a sandwich shop.

it is lying if you are telling them that you are feeding them dead animal if you are not.

It sounds like a variation on consent issues.

I am also allergic to quorn and will be throwing up for HOURS so I would be really upset to be exposed to something I am allergic to without being asked!

I'd want to know as Quorn gives me terrible stomach cramps / pain, so I avoid eating it

I dont think vegans tty or could pass stuff off as meat... so its not them to rage at.

Frankly if anyone goes to dinner at a vegan household and thinks they are beig erved meat, without actually skig first, is fucking stupid.

I mean why anyone would assume a vegan woul serve meat shows a very one sided view of the world.

If i was being served a 'beef pie' or 'chicken pie' by a friend I knew to be vegan, I would probably check. Partly because I would be uncomfortable with them compromising their beliefs for me and also to check the ingredients, more so if I had an allergy to meat substitutes.
If they lie in full knowledge of my allergy, then they are in the same category as someone serving nuts or any other food product in the full knowledge that you might make someone poorly. The vegan bit is irrelevant

To be honest, Quorn is only eaten by sporty, Mo Farah type flexitarians! You wouldn't catch a longtime veggie or vegan near it - mainly because it contains egg, apart from the very new small vegan range they bought else, and also because it's so crap compared to all the other far superior stuff now out there

I can't eat quorn or soya and I'd be annoyed if someone gave them to me and tried passing them off as meat. People should have a right to know what they're eating.

YANBU. I’m perfectly content to eat and cook meat free meals BUT I have the same reaction as OP to Quorn and suchlike so would not be happy if someone had given me Quorn mince in place of real mince because even if I’d realised, just one mouthful is enough to have me spend the next few hours in the bathroom.

Quorn is really not the go-to meat substitute so don't get the focus on it

@MurielSpriggs

The essential difference is that "tricking" vegans involves putting something into the dish and pretending you haven't. "Tricking" omnivores involves leaving something out.

(Unless the trickster has positively vouched that there is no Quorn, soya, tofu or grass clippings therein.)

That's not quite correct. We're not talking about food that has been made veggie by leaving the meat out. For example plain pasta with a tomato sauce.

We're talking about food where a substitute has been used for the meat. For example the Moving Mountains plant-based fingers which look exactly like fish fingers. Telling someone that it's fish fingers is clearly wrong.

There's a gray area for things like fried rice for example where you can put anything you want, there are 'common' ingredients but people don't assume what it's made with unlike say sheperd's pie or a roast dinner