AIBU to say that in practice sexting a person legally means consent to sex?

[ScrollingLeaves]

To see why I am saying this watch Channel 4:Rape - Who’s on Trial which is on now

A woman flirted with a man in a pub.
Willingly went to toilets with him. Text messages has passed between them.
He shoved her against the wall and violently shoved fingers in her while kissing her.
He left because he heard someone coming in.
Watching CCTV it looked as though she was telling the truth ( police woman thought so).
Alleged victim very upset.

Then they found she’d sent a bra photo and a topless photo to him.
Police man said something like “you have to ask what sort of message was that giving”

Case dropped.

The man. The man is the risk, the man has created the dangerous situation, through his actions. The man.

Did he force her to take topless photos? Drag her to the pub with him? Force her into the toilets. SHE sent the photos, SHE went to the pub, SHE went willingly to the toilets. Then she says she withdrew consent. Where is the evidence?

I'm speaking in general terms. But you carry on accepting that male violence is inevitable, and that women get what they deserve, as objects here to serve all men's wants, needs, requirements, etc.

I'll continue fighting against such reprehensible attitudes, and believe that women are actually, in fact, human beings.

@MyButteredBread

I agree.
These attitudes are fucking depressing and will be infecting their sons.

^What else was she thinking would happen if she willingly goes to a cubicle with a guy she sent topless photos too
Come on take a bit of responsibility lady^

I once met a man at a gig, we had a fantastic kiss in the loos then he walked me home like a total gent. We dated for two years... Maybe she was assuming he'd treat her like a human being and ya'know, not assault her.

[quote Kendodd]**@MyButteredBread

I agree.
These attitudes are fucking depressing and will be infecting their sons.[/quote]
This ^^^ exactly!

It's as if a woman who sends sexy texts to a man, then meets him somewhere private, he then has an absolute right to have sex with her. WTF!

Absolutely no way is my son going to be getting the "well, what did she think was going to happen" message from me. Unfortunately he is going to be getting it from wider society.

“nosyupnorth

Yes, and it's something more people should be aware of. In a typical case with no other witness/lack of full audio & visual recording, then it comes down to he said/she said and a woman's claim to having said no is undermined if she's previously been encouraging and offered sexual interactions -- of course we all should be able to change our mind in the moment and have it respected but that isn't something which can be proven in courts which means that police and judges often have to look at the context and if there is room for doubt.“

In this case there was no video recording of the alleged attack itself which was in a cubicle, but there was enough to corroborate her story in general and to suggest something might have turned nasty in the way she said ( the police woman did believe her).

Even if there had been no sext sent the man would have argued that he had believed there was consent. The barrister at the end of the debate following the programme said that if the man believed there was consent then he would not be found guilty.

We all know how easily men find consent in general.

@SirenSays

Yes, she thought she was going for a kiss she said. Then things turned nasty.

^What else was she thinking would happen if she willingly goes to a cubicle with a guy she sent topless photos too
Come on take a bit of responsibility lady^“

What I think is so worrying is that young girls are under huge pressure to send boys sext photos. It may even be expected of them if they want a boyfriend or to be liked. They won’t realise this is potential rape permission .

What I think is so worrying is that young girls are under huge pressure to send boys sext photos. It may even be expected of them if they want a boyfriend or to be liked. They won’t realise this is potential rape permission

Good point and something else I need to speak to my son about. Never pressure a girl for naked pictures, don't even ask her for them.

Sexting does NOT equal consent.

I have quite a flirtatious relationship with a guy i know in Canada, we've discussed all kinds of stuff, even to the point of saying if he does come to the uk i'd quite happily pay him a booty call.

That doesn't mean that the moment i meet him he has my permission to do anything without my consent. Him having my consent to exhange sexual texts does not mean he has my consent to touch me without making sure i'm ok with it first.

Kissing/hugging is one thing, anything else/beyond that should ALWAYS be checked for consent every single time.

“JustLyra

Sadly it is the case that if you are remotely nice to a guy then proving rape is apparently nigh on impossible.

The police told me it was pointless even speaking to the CPS in my case because I had previously willingly had sex with the man, and encouraged it.
Five YEARS previously when we had a relationship…
The fact I had injuries and stitches still wasn’t enough.”

I am very sorry @JustLyra That is just so awful.

“Why is there CCTV in the toilets? Were they in the male or female toilets?

This whole thing doesn’t make sense”

The CCTV was in the passageway outside the toilets. It showed the sequence of events she described as relating to going in, then the other man going in.

CCTV was not inside the toilets.

You see her going out suddenly after the other man had gone in. You see the alleged assaulter quickly going out next and straight out of the pub.

You could see it on Channel 4

www.channel4.com/programmes/rape-whos-on-trial

Sorry I haven’t watched it either and the link isn’t loading for me, was the guy a stranger or did she know him?

Sorry it didn’t work. I just tried the link and it did work here though.

He was a stranger in that she didn’t know him before he came up to where she and a friend were sitting in a pub and she and the man started flirting.

He was a stranger in that she didn’t know him before he came up to where she and a friend were sitting in a pub and she and the man started flirting.

So how did she send him topless photos? Assuming she didn’t strip off in the pub?

If she didn’t want sex why did she go to the toilet with him?
perhaps she thought a bit of a snog, a grope? and then later somewhere else?
It doesn't matter: you can withdraw your consent AT ANY TIME even after penetration has happened. AT ANY TIME. And the other person must stop, or everything after that is without consent. Which is rape.

it's not bloody rocket science.

Consent can be withdrawn at any time. The issues are usually about proving things one way or the other.
Just because they consented to going into the toilets together and to kissing does not mean she consented to anything else but none of us were there so are not sure what was said or done.

Lesson for men is be careful, get to know someone first etc etc traditional dating practices are there for a reason. They protect men as much as women. If you know someone very well before being intimate it is much easier for each of you to know what the other means and says

This seems to be modern version of wearing a short skirt = asking for it

I’ve watched the programme now (which I recommend).

From a non-legal perspective I can see no reason at all to disbelieve the poor woman.

Legally though it’s very difficult to prove. I can see why they didn’t think it was worth pursuing a prosecution

otherwise you are in a ‘he said she said scenario and that isn’t generally enough to secure a conviction whatever the truth of the matter.

i am amazed at how many posters just shrug at this. It might be better if instead of always believing the man, the woman was believed? Even if the CPS brought in a "we're going for an across the board 50/50 policy on this" (so 50% of he said/she said believed the women and prosecuted based on that) we'd have WAY more convictions for rape.

I agree it is sexual assault. But confused on how it is rape. Doesn’t English law require rape to be penetration with a penis? He did not penetrate her with his penis....

People are getting confused between what’s morally right and what would lead to a conviction in a court of law.

Of course, because we’re being presented with the full story, we know that he assaulted her. He was guilty. It doesn’t matter what else happened, as she withdrew consent so therefore anything else that happened afterwards was a crime.

However in a court of law, when it comes to almost any offence against the person, you can’t just go believing the accuser. You have to have evidence.

If the man is saying “She flirted with me, she sent me sexy messages (and here they are), she willingly came to the toilets with me,m which you can see on CCTV, then after we’d done it she asked me to be in a relationship and I said no, I don’t like you in that way (or whatever a similar story might be) and then she got upset and stormed out” Then having supporting evidence, even though that might be a total lie, will help that argument. Obviously that argument would be a lot harder if CCTV showed a woman who’d never met someone being dragged off into a bush, or messages from her saying she’d never sleep with him.

As a PP said, unless we have a system where we believe the complainant no matter what, such cases will always be hard to prove as a woman could verbally give consent to sex in front of witnesses, write it down, record it on video and then change her mind halfway through the act (which she has every right to) and if the man doesn’t stop, it’s rape.

Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Consenting to one act does not consent to all or even repeat of a previously consented act.
This is everything!