To think Dumbledore was a massive cheater?

[Slytherine]

Just finished watching the first Harry Potter film on TV and forgot about the injustice for the Slytherins at the end. I have changed my name in solidarity.

So the Slytherins get the most House Points (presumably fairly as most of the professors at Hogwarts could barely hide their disdain for Slytherin House so wouldn’t have been dishing out points to them for no reason) and are sat there enjoying their win of the House Cup, and celebrating with the room decorated in their House colours, and then former Gryffindor Dumbledore just decides (even though the school year was officially over!!) to throw out an unreasonable amount of points to Harry, Hermione and Ron drawing them level with Slytherin, and then a further 10 points to Neville pushing Gryffindor over the edge and into the win. And then, just to rub salt into the wound, publicly humiliated them by casting a spell to replace all the Slytherin colours with the Gryffindor colours and gives them the award instead and they all celebrate, including him and most of the teachers, and Slytherin has to sit there and just accept it??

AIBU to think WTAF and that was very unfair and he was biased by doing this and it’s no wonder the Slytherins were openly hostile and dismissive of him after that!? I’d be fuming if I were a Slytherin student and if I were a parent of a Slytherin student I’d be marching up to the school myself and having a word with the head.

Surely the worst plot hole in the whole thing is Fred and George clearly being able to see for two whole years that Ron is sleeping, eating and wandering around with a guy called Peter Pettergrew but not questioning it? They had that Marauders Map for the whole time but never pulled him up on sharing a bed with this dude.

Dumbledore was either senile or a narcissist. He never just told people things.

I vote narcissist. He never told any of the other staff at Hogwarts what he’d witnessed of Tom Riddle’s behaviour at the orphanage. He wasn’t headmaster at that stage, so surely should have at least told his superiors. Bollocks to the idea he was giving Riddle a fresh start - if a kid displays those tendencies at such a young age you’d flipping well make sure everyone else was keeping an eye on them! He just enjoyed the power of knowing the real Tom Riddle IMO, and probably saw a lot of his youthful self in the boy.

@DangerMouse0

Surely the worst plot hole in the whole thing is Fred and George clearly being able to see for two whole years that Ron is sleeping, eating and wandering around with a guy called Peter Pettergrew but not questioning it? They had that Marauders Map for the whole time but never pulled him up on sharing a bed with this dude.

I have three contenders for biggest plot hole.

Firstly that Fred and George worked out how to use the marauders map. They guessed exactly the right words to say? Madness.

Secondly, I don’t care how clever Hermione is, the government isn’t going to give a 13 year old one of a few very secret time travel machines so she can take a couple of extra classes.

And thirdly, why why why does Moody need to make sure Harry wins the triwizard tournament so he touches the portkey cup. He could have given him any item throughout the year at any point and got him to Voldemort. What sort of convoluted plan is this?

Firstly that Fred and George worked out how to use the marauders map. They guessed exactly the right words to say? Madness

JKR was interviewed about this years ago. They stole the map from Filch’s office and she said she could imagine that they were just messing about with spells to reveal the map and the closer they got, the map sort of flickered into life, until they came up with the right words.

@DangerMouse0

Surely the worst plot hole in the whole thing is Fred and George clearly being able to see for two whole years that Ron is sleeping, eating and wandering around with a guy called Peter Pettergrew but not questioning it? They had that Marauders Map for the whole time but never pulled him up on sharing a bed with this dude.

This made me burst into laughter. DH looking at me oddly

@theworldsastage

Dumbledore manipulated everyone around him. He might have been one of the most powerful wizards of all time, but he wasn't a very nice man.

And Harry Potter was a brat.

Severus Snape was the best character, and that's my hill to die on. People dislike him because they read the books through the viewpoint of a bratty adolescent boy and don't read around what Harry is saying.

He was bullied at school, at home, fell in with the wrong crowd, tried desperately to make amends at a huge personal cost, and rather than receiving redemption, was forced by Dumbledore the Twat to be his personal whipping boy for decades, whilst being the same for Tom Riddle. Tom, incidentally, being yet another pupil Dumbledore had failed.

I think the books would have been very short, had there been a Wizarding Ofstead and they paid Dumbledore a visit earlier in his career. Man would have been struck off, and there would never have been a Dark Lord and a Magical War.

@theworldsastage He was bullied at school, at home, fell in with the wrong crowd, tried desperately to make amends at a huge personal cost, and rather than receiving redemption, was forced by Dumbledore the Twat to be his personal whipping boy for decades, whilst being the same for Tom Riddle.

But Harry didn't know any of this, all Harry was that Snape was singling him out and bullying him. So how can Harry be a brat when all he saw was an adult bullying him who had it in for him?

Whatever problems Snape had growing up, he was the ADULT. It didn't justify him taking it out on a child.

all Harry knew, was - should be the first line.

@theworldsastage Harry's view is without the knowledge that Snape is a spy, playing a role.

Exactly! So HOW is it Harry's fault, HOW is he a 'brat', when he didn't know? You are judging him on the reactions of a BULLIED CHILD, which are completely normal!

It's been a long long time since I read the books ( I did read them twice too ) but many of these theories are fascinating.
The way that the ministry of magic treated Harry at times was appalling and Dolores Umbridge was much worse than Snape.
I agree that Dumbledore was flawed, but ultimately he wanted to avoid another war and for Voldemort to lose. Harry was but his pawn on the chessboard. I think that he felt bad about this, but the thought of Voldermort being all powerful again was much worse.
He was between a rock and a hard place really.

Don't forget it was all set in the 1990s as well. Things were different at school then. Even at magical schools. Especially at magical schools.

I really enjoyed reading this thread...need to reread the books now. Thanks everyone got lots of different views and shows how good the books are!

Favourite MN thread ever!!

Yeah, Dumbledore was the big surprise for me - kind of a plot twist when he turns out to be almost a baddie, with Snape coming out as the hero.

Very strange

Harry doesn't see it that way though, does it.

Even after the manipulation is exposed, Harry sees Dumbledore as a hero, to the extent that he names his child after him. (And properly, not just a middle name like he does with Severus.)

Although, tbf, Harry's not the sharpest tool in the box!

Also, Severus is an awful name for a child. I was surprised at the lack of original thought in baby naming. I mean Ginny thought up the name Pigwidgeon for her childhood pet but couldn’t come up with anything better than her husbands parents and bully/mentor/hero figures plus the name of her friend from school?

Surely they could have called the kids something interesting? Or if they did want to name them after someone - maybe Hagrid? He did lots for Harry and had nobody to carry on his memory/name. Neither did Dumbledore and Snape but they probably should be forgotten. Cedric would have been nice too.

@Kanaloa you’re right. Tbh I’m surprised Harry didn’t just call Hedwig ‘snowy’. Or did someone else name Hedwig for him?

*Harry was the chosen one.

Hermione was the brains.

Ron was... just there.*

I like Ron's ordinariness. Malfoy initially offers Harry friendship with a suggestion that it would be to his advantage. Slughorn is all about promoting useful connections. Harry and Ron are friends just because they are, because they spend time together doing friend things, without an ulterior motive.

I think the occasional tensions between them are well portrayed. Crabbe and Goyle could never have those fall-outs with Malfoy, because they are henchmen, rather than friends. Ron and Harry are more equal.

That said, when we were waiting for the final books and looking for foreshadowing all over the place, I completely believed that Ron's chess prowess in book 1 was foreshadowing. I thought he would turn out to be great at strategy and would have to sacrifice himself towards the end so Harry could proceed to the final showdown with Voldemort. It's the one piece of not-really -foreshadowing that I'm disappointed about.

(Also, the Deathly Hallows should have been foreshadowed at the start. Someone should have been reading the fairytale in the dorm, to the derision of the others).

[quote Tictocrobot]@Kanaloa you’re right. Tbh I’m surprised Harry didn’t just call Hedwig ‘snowy’. Or did someone else name Hedwig for him?[/quote]
😂

Snowy would have been too original for Harry. It would have made more sense if he had looked and just named it ‘pigeon’ since that’s also a bird. Or ‘gringotts’ since he’d visited there that day.

I think he opened one of his books and saw the name there and just stuck with it.

Yeah he got hedwig from his history of magic book.

Also, Severus is an awful name for a child

I don't think it's outstanding in a world of Bartemius, Mundungus, Elphias, Bathilda, Nymphadora, and Xenophilius, though!

Though by Harry's generation, virtually all Hogwarts students appear to have ordinary, if in some cases rather old-fashioned, Muggle names and surnames Ernie, Percy, Susan, Ron, Pansy, Millicent,, Lee, Michael, Seamus, Anthony whereas you'd tend to expect a big difference in name 'types' between Muggle-borns like Hermione and the Creevy brothers, and children from wizarding families.

(Draco is unusual in this, for his Hogwarts generation.)

Also, it's interesting that while the Hogwarts staff (presumably some at least of the same generation as the parents of current Hogwarts students) almost all have obviously 'odd' magical names like Filius Flitwick, Pomona Sprout, Quirinius Quirrell, Rolanda Hooch, Gilderoy Lockhart etc, the parents/close relatives of children we hear mentioned often have ordinary Muggle names and surnames -- Frank and Alice Longbottom, Arthur and Molly Weasley, Amelia Bones, James Potter.

Sod the broom sheds.

Room of Requirement, no?

I suppose that would at least clear up any issues around consent. The room would only appear if you really really needed it.

@bibliomania

*Harry was the chosen one.

Hermione was the brains.

Ron was... just there.*

I like Ron's ordinariness. Malfoy initially offers Harry friendship with a suggestion that it would be to his advantage. Slughorn is all about promoting useful connections. Harry and Ron are friends just because they are, because they spend time together doing friend things, without an ulterior motive.

I think the occasional tensions between them are well portrayed. Crabbe and Goyle could never have those fall-outs with Malfoy, because they are henchmen, rather than friends. Ron and Harry are more equal.

That said, when we were waiting for the final books and looking for foreshadowing all over the place, I completely believed that Ron's chess prowess in book 1 was foreshadowing. I thought he would turn out to be great at strategy and would have to sacrifice himself towards the end so Harry could proceed to the final showdown with Voldemort. It's the one piece of not-really -foreshadowing that I'm disappointed about.

(Also, the Deathly Hallows should have been foreshadowed at the start. Someone should have been reading the fairytale in the dorm, to the derision of the others).

I vaguely recall JKR saying something about how she intended to kill off Ron originally, but later backed out of it, so it may well have been a piece of foreshadowing that later got abandoned (as it were….?)

@Verfremdungseffekt

Also, Severus is an awful name for a child

I don't think it's outstanding in a world of Bartemius, Mundungus, Elphias, Bathilda, Nymphadora, and Xenophilius, though!

Though by Harry's generation, virtually all Hogwarts students appear to have ordinary, if in some cases rather old-fashioned, Muggle names and surnames Ernie, Percy, Susan, Ron, Pansy, Millicent,, Lee, Michael, Seamus, Anthony whereas you'd tend to expect a big difference in name 'types' between Muggle-borns like Hermione and the Creevy brothers, and children from wizarding families.

(Draco is unusual in this, for his Hogwarts generation.)

Also, it's interesting that while the Hogwarts staff (presumably some at least of the same generation as the parents of current Hogwarts students) almost all have obviously 'odd' magical names like Filius Flitwick, Pomona Sprout, Quirinius Quirrell, Rolanda Hooch, Gilderoy Lockhart etc, the parents/close relatives of children we hear mentioned often have ordinary Muggle names and surnames -- Frank and Alice Longbottom, Arthur and Molly Weasley, Amelia Bones, James Potter.

Doesn't that all fit though? The most snobbish pure blood family avoiding any dirty muggle names?

@whistleryukon

Not once Dumbledore found the ring horcrux. It contained the resurrection stone and he wanted to see his sister again, so he put the ring on, which is what made his hand go all black and manky and is why Snape told him he only had a year to live. After he destroyed the horcrux, he hid the resurrection stone in the golden snitch and left it to Harry in his will, so he knew that Harry would get the snitch before he had the fight with Voldemort and that he’d be able to die, get rid of the Horcruxy bit inside him, then come back to life with the help of the stone.

So, he had a win win plan, but why wouldn't he just say? Why not tell Harry that plan? And McGonagall, Snape, everyone?

I think it’s because Voldemort used to be quite partial to dipping in and out of people’s minds and discovering all of their deepest secrets. Dumbledore was powerful enough to be able to block him but nobody else would have been, except Snape. Snape was able to disguise his real support for Dumbledore because Voldemort believed Snape was his spy in Hogwarts, so had to be seen to be doing and saying pro Dumbledore stuff, but if he purposely blocked Voldemort from seeing inside his head, Voldemort would realise something was afoot and the plans would be discovered.