To think infertility and deciding not to have kids are both painful in their own ways?

[stereeotype]

Trying to have kids and it's proving so far not to be successful. Me and DH discussed last night the reality is - if it doesn't happen maybe it's not such a bad thing we both concluded.

We see a lot of parent regret it or have kids that perhaps didn't turn out what they expected for variety of reasons (move to other countries, become tearaways etc etc) so we are not going to stress ourselves out about it.

Trouble is, I feel like not having them - either through decision or indecision is a painful experience. We are not planning on moving to another city and the place we live isa small place the kinda place where 99 percent of people have kids and not having them means, well - you're the odd one out. No other way to describe it. I'm female too so have no friends without kids.

The societal pressure is too much. It's really getting to me.

It's just becoming quite painful. I think about it a lot, and I just think it's so hard not having kids. Really, really hard. Even when you've decided not to have them - it's like a life confined to making yourself the outsider.

How do I deal with this?

having kids (or trying to) because you feel like you should is a terrible reason to have them. You say yourself you’re not sure you even want them, but clearly you are conflicted about it to some extent to feel sad and you’re entitled to feel how you do.

But personally no I have never felt any sadness/difficulty/pressure. I’ve known from a young age I didn’t want kids and frankly I don’t care what society may or may not think of me. I think it depends on your circles as well because none of my female friends have kids either and I’ve never been asked whether I have them. Honestly I would consider moving somewhere a little more diverse and open minded if I were you.

@Spidersinmyhair

Yes. I think you have to own being the odd one out. I've decided not to have children but I absolutely feel the societal pressure or which you speak. It takes courage to go against the grain. Courage is a good quality. Peer pressure is not something I aspire to, nor is living my life according to society's arbitrary expectations.

What a strange way of looking at it.

People have children because everyone else is?

I had children because I wanted them and couldn't imagine my life without them. Not because others did.

I think this is really dependent on where you live, and your social circle. We don't have kids (by choice) but more than 50% of my friends don't have kids.

It also becomes a lot less of an issue as you get older. Firstly people stop asking you about your choices, and secondly I've found (most but not all) friends disappear a bit when their kids are under 10 or so, but when the children become a bit more independent, those friendships resume. I am happy to go out with my friends and their children though - it doesn't make me feel like an outsider.

I'm almost certainly going to stay childfree but I've never been 100% either way, and yes I do feel sadness when I think about the path not followed. I don't think having children is right for me and have no desire for them, but I feel sadness about not having an adult family when I'm my parents' age. I also feel like an outsider and left behind, so I completely understand where you're coming from.

‘What a strange way of looking at it.

People have children because everyone else is?

I had children because I wanted them and couldn't imagine my life without them. Not because others did.’

Some people do have children due to the pressure, though. As the OP discusses, if you don’t have children you are asked constantly whether you will, why not if you say ‘no’, told you will change your mind if you say you don’t want them, told there’s more you can do if you say you’re struggling to have them.

Having kids is a massive life change you cannot know or anticipate before hand and from which there is no going back.

Even in a society that was neutral about it, some people would regret their choice.

But our society is not neutral about it at all. It tells (women) they are lesser / lacking / wrong / a failure / some
Combination of these for not having them.

Your last comment ‘I couldn’t imagine my life without them’ rather makes the point. Many people feel that way - good for them. The problem is, they assume everyone else must.

Mumsnet is one of the few places where parenthood regret is discussed. It certainly exists, but again mostly for women, it’s a massive taboo.

I agree. Being single and childless is even worse in that respect.

Childfree by choice here and I totally agree op. There is a societal expectation on women. I've been questioned, and even scorned for my choices. I find other women to be the worse judges. I can't imagine the pain of that judgment if it's not an active choice due to infertility.

I had counselling to help me unpick my feelings around it which helped.

'I had children because I wanted them and couldn't imagine my life without them'

Good for you. Plenty of people though seem to have them because it's 'what everyone does' or 'the next step' or whatever. You often see posts on here from women who are pregnant and have never held a baby or had anything whatsoever to do with babies since they were one themselves. Blows my mind.

I hear you OP. I always knew deep down that the relentlessness of parenthood was not for me, and I think I would have ended up miserable and resentful. And yet, a big part of me desperately wanted a family, and a child to nurture, and my decision not to have children definitely felt like a loss that had to be grieved. It can be a lonely, sad and isolating decision, even if you know deep down that it's the right one

A lot of parents on here talk about how it's TOTALLY FINE to not have children, but it doesn't always feel like that from the other side. Having children, or at least wanting to and trying to, is still absolutely presented as 'the norm' for women. It's very very hard to step away from that, especially if you feel ambivalent about the whole issue, as many of us do

I completely understand what you're saying, OP.

DH and I were unsure for years, both on the fence, thinking we could be happy childfree. Then we thought actually we're financially stable, great marriage, we'd love a family, and definitely felt a societal pressure ("what are we missing out on")

Then after 2 years of no pregnancy, we went for tests and found out that we both have fertility issues, and IVF would have 1% chance of working. Neither of us felt prepared to go through the turmoil of IVF, so we put it to the backs of our minds for a few more years.

I'm late 30s now and although I'm 90% happy with having a childfree life (my life is my own, I have a lot of freedom, spontaneity, a wonderful DH) there are times when I still wonder if we should try IVF.

Ultimately I feel childree not by choice because we would have a family now if I'd have been able to conceive naturally, but then deciding not to undergo IVF feels like a choice to be childfree too.

I often feel relieved I don't have kids (seeing friends utterly exhausted and struggling, marriages breaking down) but often too I have real pangs of pain when I see a family out and about, just being together.

I've tried to focus on the amazing things I do have in my life which has helped. There's no right or wrong way to feel, but I wanted to say I understand how complicated and even contradictory your feelings can be, and I'm here if you ever wanted to PM and chat. X

Mumsnet is one of the few places where parenthood regret is discussed. It certainly exists, but again mostly for women, it’s a massive taboo.

Let's see how long it takes for the condescending happy flower mummy to show up in a thread like this. There's inevitably always one person who reads the topic and posts something along the lines of "Kids are the best things in the world and mine are amazing and I don't understand why people bash parents blabla etc"

OP, to answer your question I have on DD and absolutely do not plan to have more. I did want to have children (plural) and went through a few years of MCs to get pregnant. However the reality of being a parent was such a shock and had such an impact on so many areas of my life. I realised I can be good mum to one child because I only have to do everything once but there is no way in hell I'm voluntarily doing it all over again.

It's a conundrum because you have to decide to escape an experience that you never have, and therefore you can't have a true basis of comparison. People with kids might tell you about the sleepless nights, lack of time to yourself, chaos and mess but it's miles away from actually living that day after day.

I've seen many marriages in our friendship group getting torn apart by the strain of just one baby. Fact is, there is SO much going on behind closed doors that nobody talks about. You can honestly never judge how happy someone is by the pictures they post or by catching up briefly over coffee. Especially motherhood, no new mum will dare admit she hates her life and it's also something that ebbs and flows so you can more or less keep a good facade by surfing the "nice waves" if that makes sense.

It may also forever change your relationship to your husband and partner. Some men become fantastic dads, many men don't cope well with the change. It's hard to predict which category each person will fall into so that for me would be another key reason against having kids. This is another thing many many women gloss over. They will show their kids and happily mention "daddy" but they will never talk about the arguments that go on behind closed doors.

I wanted children/ a child very very much. My career is working with young children. There’s lots of children in my family and I’d done an awful lot of childcare, babysitting, overnights etc. In no way compares to having your own of course but a bit of an insight into both the positives and negatives. I knew I’d probably have a lovely and in some ways easier life without children. I knew it was very much heart over head (or hormones over head maybe) the desire to have them but I also knew it was absolutely what I wanted.

When I got near 40 and hadn’t conceived, treatment didn’t seem to be working and ivf was the next step although we were told our chances were not good - we did have the discussion about how far we were willing to take it. We agreed that we would do our one free cycle of ivf and if that wasn’t successful we would draw a line under it and accept that it wasn’t to be. There was only so much of my life I was prepared to be consumed by fertility struggles and my DH did not feel he wanted to pursue adoption, I might have considered it but also knew something of the inherent difficulties and knew there was no point unless we were both completely on board.

For me, starting to think what my life would look like if we didn’t have a child was quite scary - it was so hugely different to everything I’d imagined and assumed for myself and yes, I guess that society assumes for us. In a way it was slightly freeing though - we could move anywhere, I’d probably have considered a career change (as it happens that came about anyway, albeit maybe temporary), lots of things that I might have felt I ‘needed’ if I was going to start a family would become much less important.

Very luckily we did get pregnant and had our beautiful DD. Which has been overwhelmingly positive and I wouldn’t change it, not even for the fantasy life I came up with when faced with the prospect of not having children. But that’s because I did want her so very very much. If I was more in the fence originally, it probably would have been better to end up with the plan B life.

I think the ‘decision’ if it is that is probably more painful if you’re still living the life you started to build with children in mind - if you’re in an area you moved to/ stayed in with the idea of starting a family, in a house you imagined bringing children home to etc, in my case doing a career I half chose because I thought it would be family friendly (I was wrong, but still). Instead of focusing on the ‘decision’ re children maybe try picturing your life how you would really really want it - where would you live, how would you fill your days? Where and with whom could you spend your time so that you DID fit in?

People have children because everyone else is?

Some people do yes. There is still a view that you’re not fully adult/grown up until you’ve become a parent. Some people do not have a strong gut feeling one way or another but have them because of a feeling they’d be missing out if they didn’t.

I hear you. I'd never been maternal or desperate for children. But you marry and have them right? So I got married, and although unsure about the whole thing we tried. And tried, and tried. The whole time I think I often felt relief at failing alongside a feeling of being broken. Hard to reconcile.

Fortunately we didn't qualify for IVF due to my Partners child from a previous marriage. There appeared to be no reason for my inability to conceive. Long story short, he cheated and got the ow pregnant and that was our marriage over.

I am so grateful I never had children. I like to think my body took control where my mind was failing and put a stop to it. I didn't honestly want it. It would not have made me happy. But I struggled HUGELY reconciling my inability to do what women are meant to. With being broken? And the way my marriage ended with pregnancy on his side somehow added to the mix, even though the marriage had run it's course regardless.

I had to work through a lot of emotions around that. I'm not broken at all. These days I'm happy, content and hugely relieved at living my child free life and not having made, what for me, would have been a huge mistake.

People have children because everyone else is?

Some people undoubtedly do. And then some of them go on to have one or several more, often when they probably shouldn’t, because it’s the done thing and they want their family to quality as ‘the norm’.

As social animals humans have a strong urge to fit in, and it’s often hard to defy very ingrained societal norms. DP and I have stopped at one DC and are constantly being asked when #2 is arriving, and told DD will be lonely/spoilt/poorly socialised if we don’t have another. But we’re resisting because we’re both pretty self aware and know that, for us, any more children would be a very bad idea. I suspect lots of others, who are perhaps younger and know themselves a little less, would have given into pressure and gone on to have more DC.

@OP - we're in a very similar situation to you at the moment. Struggling a bit with the change in dynamic with our closest friends who've just had a baby, whilst we are trying to make peace with the fact it might not be possible for us. It's not really about envy or anything like that - it's just hard trying to work out what's best for you when the general feeling is you may be left behind.

You often see posts on here from women who are pregnant and have never held a baby or had anything whatsoever to do with babies since they were one themselves. Blows my mind.

Wow. I think posts like this just prove that you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If you haven't had an opportunity to hold a baby (e.g. youngest in your family and no other baby interactions), you're not cut out for it, or a natural? The judgement women get is just shit all round.

@Ragwort

I am surprised that 99% of the people you know have DC, I find that statistic very high and I am sure it doesn't reflect society. In my circle lots of people don't have DC.

99% of often just used as a saying meaning that pretty much everyone is or does.

@CounsellorTroi

People have children because everyone else is?

Some people do yes. There is still a view that you’re not fully adult/grown up until you’ve become a parent. Some people do not have a strong gut feeling one way or another but have them because of a feeling they’d be missing out if they didn’t.

That's exactly me - I don't have a huge gut feeling one way or another but am trying anyway, rightly or wrongly 🤷‍♀️

But knowing that I may not even be able to and keep miscarrying is an added layer of sadness - in a weird way. Relief in many ways to know the decision is out of my control but still that thought of why me? Why my body doing this?

It's an awful feeling. Awful to know biologically I can't have kids and also awful to have to make a decision not to.

It's a unique situation that I couldn't have predicted being in. Being both, ambivalent and unable to.

Posters say just don't have them if you don't want them, it's not always that clear cut which is why I posted to see if others out there maybe in the same position can relate

Let's see how long it takes for the condescending happy flower mummy to show up in a thread like this. There's inevitably always one person who reads the topic and posts something along the lines of "Kids are the best things in the world and mine are amazing and I don't understand why people bash parents blabla etc"

Add to that the ones who say ‘Oh, if you’re not sure just have one and your life won’t be any different!’ and the inevitable wide-eyed “Why are non-parents on Mumsnet?”

I always knew I didn’t want kids. Being a lesbian does mean the social expectations on you to have them are much lower though.

That sounds very tough OP, I’m sorry

OP I don't think anyone has mentioned Gateway Women yet. It could be a good way of widening your social circle to include more women in your position?

gateway-women.com/

Ultimately I feel childree not by choice because we would have a family now if I'd have been able to conceive naturally, but then deciding not to undergo IVF feels like a choice to be childfree too.

Yes I get this. Choosing not to pursue adoption or use donor gametes felt that way to me too.

'I am so grateful I never had children'

This is so lovely to read. I feel the same, although it's bittersweet. Reading comments like this give me great strength and are very validating. We need to hear more from women who feel this way

Very much seconding the recommendation for Gateway Women. It's a very supportive community and I have got so much from being a member

@Catsstillrock

‘What a strange way of looking at it.

People have children because everyone else is?

I had children because I wanted them and couldn't imagine my life without them. Not because others did.’

Some people do have children due to the pressure, though. As the OP discusses, if you don’t have children you are asked constantly whether you will, why not if you say ‘no’, told you will change your mind if you say you don’t want them, told there’s more you can do if you say you’re struggling to have them.

Having kids is a massive life change you cannot know or anticipate before hand and from which there is no going back.

Even in a society that was neutral about it, some people would regret their choice.

But our society is not neutral about it at all. It tells (women) they are lesser / lacking / wrong / a failure / some
Combination of these for not having them.

Your last comment ‘I couldn’t imagine my life without them’ rather makes the point. Many people feel that way - good for them. The problem is, they assume everyone else must.

Mumsnet is one of the few places where parenthood regret is discussed. It certainly exists, but again mostly for women, it’s a massive taboo.

Both my siblings don't have kids. Mid and late 30s. Because they are obsessed with their dogs people don't ask. It's kind of a joke. Dog mum. I guess if they didn't have dogs people may ask?

@Lottapianos

'I had children because I wanted them and couldn't imagine my life without them'

Good for you. Plenty of people though seem to have them because it's 'what everyone does' or 'the next step' or whatever. You often see posts on here from women who are pregnant and have never held a baby or had anything whatsoever to do with babies since they were one themselves. Blows my mind.

I hear you OP. I always knew deep down that the relentlessness of parenthood was not for me, and I think I would have ended up miserable and resentful. And yet, a big part of me desperately wanted a family, and a child to nurture, and my decision not to have children definitely felt like a loss that had to be grieved. It can be a lonely, sad and isolating decision, even if you know deep down that it's the right one

A lot of parents on here talk about how it's TOTALLY FINE to not have children, but it doesn't always feel like that from the other side. Having children, or at least wanting to and trying to, is still absolutely presented as 'the norm' for women. It's very very hard to step away from that, especially if you feel ambivalent about the whole issue, as many of us do

I'd never changed a nappy before. It's a huge decision and such hard work. I couldn't imagine having one unplanned it would be a major shock.

Mine are 9 and 11 and honestly those years were such a blur.

I think if you have had fertility issues, there is a stigma around choosing to step off the IVF treadmill, or choosing not to get on it in the first place. The Don’t Give Up message is very strong. I heard an edition of Woman’s Hour a few years back which was meant to be about moving on from failed fertility treatment, there was an IVF doctor who only conceded reluctantly that it’s possible to have a good life without children, and the phone in part was allowed to be taken over by people saying effectively don’t give up, we were going to and then it worked. Which deafeated the original object of the programme. I complained but never got a response.