To think it’s actually easy to get rid of a teacher?

[Rockrollrock]

I think it’s poorly understood how insecure a teachers job actually is. A headteacher can start capability procedures based on quite spurious evidence and once capability is an established fact, your only option is to resign.

So while teachers are rarely dismissed, many are managed out.

Not sure what this is related to, but, providedproper procedures are followed, its quite easy to get rid of any employee m

I agree. I was managed out along with another long serving teacher this Summer. We have since been replaced with two of the HT's golfing buddies. It's scarily common amongst female teachers aged 50+ and there is very little you can do about it.

It’s quite easy to get of if any employee. Teachers aren’t a special breed.

I think most people who are put on a capability process - teachers or otherwise - tend to believe that the evidence is spurious. In my experience, they tend to invest all of their energies in disputing that evidence rather than in addressing the actual issues raised. I suspect that many could keep their jobs if they approached it differently.

Few managers and few headteachers will go down the capability route unless they feel that they have absolutely no choice. It's so much hassle.

@Freddiefox

It’s quite easy to get of if any employee. Teachers aren’t a special breed.

That's not what the op is saying. It's not a competition.

Yes I know someone. I don't even work in teaching in the uk. Friend of my mum's (therefore a very experienced older female teacher over 50).

I worked in secondary schools where a lot of the non-core teachers were on fixed term contracts, so yes very easy to get rid of. But still more secure jobs than many people have.

providedproper procedures are followed, its quite easy to get rid of any employee

This is so.

I think most people who are put on a capability process - teachers or otherwise - tend to believe that the evidence is spurious. In my experience, they tend to invest all of their energies in disputing that evidence rather than in addressing the actual issues raised.

This is undoubtebly true but the problem in teaching us that it's very easy to find spurious evidence and use that as a lever to make a difficult job impossible.

A competent teacher can certainly defend themselves but it is a lengthy, arduous process involving going to tribunal. I've known teachers who 'won' (by showing the evidence was false) but never teach again.

Yeah employers are able to “manage out”‘underperforming staff. There are processes in place for that.

Why should teachers be exempt from that??

I don't know the OP's reason for posting, maybe to challenge the widely held view that teaching is one of those secure jobs for life.

I work in a school although not a teacher and completely agree.

If SLT want rid of you, you'll be gone. One poor lesson observation, a support plan and poof resignation.

Well nor should it be if you can’t do the job 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think a lot of people do believe that teachers have a very secure job and I’ve never felt this. I’ve always felt like I’m just one poor learning walk away from losing my job.

Of course this is true for loads of places but they don’t tend to have people saying ‘oh but you have a job for life.’

And it’s true some people deserve to be put on capability but it is open to abuse in teaching (I’m sure it is in other jobs but to be fair I did post about teachers!)

I think older (ie more expensive) teachers can be identified as 'under performing' because they may not be enthused about reinventing their teaching every 5 minutes under the latest trend (anyone remember VAK, Starters, mains and Plenaries.. Showing evidence of progress in every lesson? ). Now it's digital learning, everything on OneNote etc. Experienced knowledgeable teachers can still inspire and enthuse with quiet authority and respect, excellent subject knowledge and experience of prepping kids for exams but if a head is looking to cut the salary bill its an easy way to shave off quite a bit.

@IWishToAnswerInTheAffirmative

Well nor should it be if you can’t do the job 🤷🏻‍♀️

But I’m not talking about people who can’t do the job.

The fact is the workload for teaching is so intense and so endless that no matter how good you are, you can never do everything you are supposed to. Most teachers stick to the things they know are important and do the pointless paperwork when needed.(I'm not talking risk assessments, I'm talking what equates for an app on every child in every subject etc. Not seen a school in over 8 years now without a ridiculous marking and assessment policy).

It means it's easy to find evidence of not doing the job 'properly' if you don't like someone. It doesn't mean they are crap, it means they get by(because they need to sleep and eat).

I've seen this in action too many times. One colleague put on capability because they found one child's book with a few unmarked pages(child always putting it in desk instead of in marking box as told).

Go nextdoor to next year group. Not exaggerating, every child around a term of maths and English not marked.

Golden boy though.

On a happier note, the best teacher I ever knew was managed out and set up her own very successful school.
But she really was a superhuman. Generally the process of capability destroys people.

@AlexaShutUp

I think most people who are put on a capability process - teachers or otherwise - tend to believe that the evidence is spurious. In my experience, they tend to invest all of their energies in disputing that evidence rather than in addressing the actual issues raised. I suspect that many could keep their jobs if they approached it differently.

Few managers and few headteachers will go down the capability route unless they feel that they have absolutely no choice. It's so much hassle.

I have to disagree there- as a non-teacher working in a school I have seen several instances where the evidence isn't far off spurious, very much a face/opinion doesn't fit situation. Some schools have supremely toxic leadership. That's why I'm never surprised when I see posters saying bullying is rife in the NHS- I think it's a public sector thing but no idea where it stems from.

@IWishToAnswerInTheAffirmative

Well nor should it be if you can’t do the job 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think the point is that teachers are ‘managed out’ when they CAN do their jobs. There’s a pendulum of teaching fashions and teachers who are solid, competent practitioners. If your face doesn’t fit with SLT, it’s easy for them to point to a minor issue that’s suddenly ‘vital’ to pedagogical excellence… until it isn’t, one OfStEd swing later.

It seems an odd one because I have quite a few friends who are teachers and they have the view that it is very difficult to get rid of incompetent teachers in a state school. But then at one of their schools the head teacher took a dislike to one teacher and made their life a misery until they left, so it might be a case similar to an office job, where sometimes it can be easy to get rid of someone, and other times almost impossible.

But that’s the same in most jobs - your face doesn’t fit or you don’t like new, “innovative” ways of doing things then yeah they want fresh blood.

I’m a a lawyer. We see that in our profession too.

I’m not saying it’s right. But it’s not something in which teachers are a special case.

There are processes in place if you feel you’ve been unfairly dismissed.

You shouldn’t feel it’s so precarious though, OP.

‘I’ve always felt like I’m just one poor learning walk away from losing my job.’

A learning walk should be an opportunity to improve practice! Not a threat to your job. Find a better school!

My school made 7 teachers redundant at the end of last academic year and 2 members of SLT and 2 TAs redundant the year before. Last we they also got rid of 2 or 3 more by putting them on capability (quite rightly tbf).

It used to be a very secure profession I think but not so much any more.

It’s not the school, I’d feel it wherever. It’s the way teaching is.

When you say redundant though - do you mean given their statutory redundancy and a handshake? Only in my local authority there was a very generous early retirement/voluntary redundancy scheme for teachers. Decent money. Additional years added to their pensions.

I wonder if the potential for toxicity is as many schools are like a small business? Where you get businesses with 100 employees or less it is v possible for the well to be poisoned, especially if toxic from the top.