To think it’s actually easy to get rid of a teacher?

[Rockrollrock]

I think it’s poorly understood how insecure a teachers job actually is. A headteacher can start capability procedures based on quite spurious evidence and once capability is an established fact, your only option is to resign.

So while teachers are rarely dismissed, many are managed out.

You're not wrong in thinking that once SLT want you gone, it can happen fairly easily. The main problem is convincing SLT that the teacher should go.

DH is a HOD. One of his teachers gets so many complaints from students, parents and staff. So much so that DH won't deal with them anymore as it was all taking up so much of his time, and now he automatically passes complaints to his line manager to manage. Said teacher has two-weekly meetings with SLT, the complaints still come in and teacher is still there. The kids hate them as they make them cry, and anxious. They don't pull their weight in the department and spends open evenings sitting in the corner doing their marking. They have to be there because it's directed time but they won't participate in the event. And they refuse to teach exam classes because they don't want to be measured on results.

He has another teacher who committed serious malpractice during the end of year GCSE and A level assessments last year. Twice. And lied to cover it up. Twice. They received ONE written warning, but in another profession they would have been sacked by now.

So in his current experience he has two teachers who shouldn't be there, he dearly wishes would go, but SLT won't get rid of them.

@HugeAckmansWife

I think older (ie more expensive) teachers can be identified as 'under performing' because they may not be enthused about reinventing their teaching every 5 minutes under the latest trend (anyone remember VAK, Starters, mains and Plenaries.. Showing evidence of progress in every lesson? ). Now it's digital learning, everything on OneNote etc. Experienced knowledgeable teachers can still inspire and enthuse with quiet authority and respect, excellent subject knowledge and experience of prepping kids for exams but if a head is looking to cut the salary bill its an easy way to shave off quite a bit.

So very true.All the new initiatives come and go and are usually deemed ineffective as they make way for the next wave. I was fortunate to work in a private school where my skills and experience were recognised even though I didn’t embrace every new fad. Even so my review included a questionnaire for my year 11 class where they had to agree/disagree with statements such as’My teacher uses IT in every lesson.’ ( this being the latest thing at the time.) One pupil responded with ‘No, why would she? She teaches very well without using IT every lesson , and we are all sick of it anyway.’ I teach Maths, by the way,

There's definitely a culture in some academy chains of getting rid of expensive teachers (why pay someone £38k when you can get a newly qualified class teacher for £26k and budgets are so stretched...experience doesn't seem to count for a lot). People walk before they are pushed, same as in other professions. I met a teacher retiring recently and was honestly very surprised - I can't remember the last time I worked with a teacher of anywhere near retirement age, they've all gone long before then.

I don't think the OP was suggesting teachers are any different, more making the point that the job is no more secure than most industries.

@IWishToAnswerInTheAffirmative

Yeah employers are able to “manage out”‘underperforming staff. There are processes in place for that.

Why should teachers be exempt from that??

It's a very widespread idea that you can't get rid of a poor teacher. I've been hearing it and seeing it through my entire career.

OP is simply explaining that it isn't true.

I met a teacher retiring recently and was honestly very surprised - I can't remember the last time I worked with a teacher of anywhere near retirement age, they've all gone long before then.

Same here. We lose so many before their first 5 years are finished, and many more are pushed out once they get too expensive. I also can't remember the last time a teacher retired.

Well, good. I’m glad that it seemingly isn’t true.

I agree with this (not a teacher but I know quite a few) - it's no safer as a job than other careers.

I would disagree with the poster who said there are more bullies in the public sector though, there are horrible toxic managers everywhere, it's just luck. As someone said above though, if a bad manager is leading a small business or a school that can poison the whole culture.

The fact is the workload for teaching is so intense and so endless that no matter how good you are, you can never do everything you are supposed to...It means it's easy to find evidence of not doing the job 'properly' if you don't like someone.

Yes, this is the issue.

Interesting. In the NHS it feels like it is very hard to remove people... which has other implications.

I don’t know if it’s just related to costs - I’ve always felt the longer you’re at a school the more embedded you become and the more secure your position is, but I’ve definitely heard of it being linked to money in other schools.

there are procedures in place if you feel you’ve been unfairly dismissed

I don’t think that’s the case here though, because it rarely comes to dismissal and plus, it’s just so easy to claim someone is performing poorly. All you need to do is ensure you observe them last lesson on a Friday with a notoriously difficult class or do a work scrutiny and choose the books from the five students who are known to have poor attendance and poor attitudes and then present the ‘evidence’ based on this. So it isn’t that it’s ‘wrong’ as such - it’s unfair, but proving it’s unfair is difficult.

And it’s definitely true that if SLT are determined a teacher will stay, they get away with ridiculous amounts. When I was HOD we had a teacher who used to tell students to fuck off and nothing happened (she was the daughter of someone’s friend …) but that’s really just a different side of the same coin.

Yes I also work in a private school, humanities subject. Very little need for interactive IT, mostly pp with images etc as stimlulus for discussion. Fortunately I seem to be valued despite my luddite views!

Teacher here
Left the system over 10 years ago.
I'm in a group of maybe 8 to 10 people who still keep in contact and meet up occasionally. Of that group, there's one at the school I used to work in, one at another school and the rest, for one reason or another..... No longer there.
I was not managed out, I left for my own personal reasons but I have absolutely no doubt that is what would have happened a few years down the line.

I think it depends how good your union representative is in terms of you getting managed out and whether this is with a pay package or not. Also, I think it’s whether a teacher can stomach the capability procedure or not if they can’t sometimes it’s easier to just resign rather than wait along.

As an employer you would be surprised how many people manage themselves out of a job!
We have raised genuine concerns about work performance with the aim of improving situation - even informally without capability procedures eg ‘how can we help you improve on x’ and some people react so badly to this or any suggestion that they are not perfect that they end up in disciplinary situations!

I don't think it's an either /or. I'm sure there are teachers who do need capability but that doesn't mean that the experiences people have related on here aren't true too. I'm sure it's also true in other professions but could we maybe just not do the 'whatabouttery' and discuss the actual op? What, if anything, could be done to protect older teachers, who are good solid classroom practitioners from budget holders' cuts or the latest 5 minute trend that condemns them as past it.

So true. I have never seen capability proceedings taken against an incapable teacher, only those who were too expensive/ too old or if their face didn't fit. Other times, these teachers were just bullied out, had no choice but to leave as their working lives were made unbearable.

In most examples, they were replaced with teachers that members of SLT knew from their personal lives (not always qualified teachers even) or teachers that they worked with in previous schools. Teachers outside this 'exclusive circle' are rare and many schools are full of staff who know each other from before.

I will never ever return to teaching. I taught for 15 years and leaving was the best decision I ever made. Awful, toxic working environments.

Bullying is rife towards teachers.
Once your card is marked you have no chance.

This is why they have to actively recruit. Have you not noticed all teachers are under 30! Over 30 and youve more chance of staying in teaching than staying alive in a firing line. By some accident of chance Ive managed to get through the cross fire, and I'm now in the granny age (age 45 to 60) of teaching.
Hoping to last to retirement as I do feel less attacked now. It's been hard going and I'm the ONLY teacher I know, of everyone I've ever known, who's still teaching. Doctors don't have to suffer this pattern.

PS Millenial woke 26yo HoDs are terrible people and should have a hard look at themselves, and stop being so cruel, not only to teachers over 30, but also to the poor kids.
Also theyre corrupt, (eg all grade 9s because they do it all.)

Absolutely true. I have seen some great teachers managed out whilst mediocre/shit ones have flourished.

@Rockrollrock

It’s not the school, I’d feel it wherever. It’s the way teaching is.

It really is the school. I’ve worked in one like that. The other three definitely weren’t. If you feel like your job is on a knife edge, look for a better school. Yours sounds toxic.

I think it is quite hard to get rid of some teachers who are “sick” - not genuinely sick, but ones who know all the rules and use the “clock re-setting” to maximum advantage.

It is also really difficult to get rid of a headteacher. Personal knowledge of this! Lesson learned: do not ever appoint a head because you don’t have any other candidates….

It's definitely possible for a really awful teacher to 'cling on' and really draw out the process. I've seen that happen, despite some really unprofessional (and in one case criminal) behaviour. But they went in the end, after a lot of damage was done. I think those rarer cases are why people get the idea that it's a job for life and you can't get rid of crap teachers. In far more significant numbers I've seen good and dedicated teachers crushed by a process of edging them out, sometimes getting to the point of capability, but more usually the teacher leaves before that happens. I always told myself I'd not even bother putting up a fight of management wanted me gone, because it's one I wouldn't be able to win and would make my life a misery for years.

I've seen lots of teachers driven out because they didn't want to toe the academy/Ofsted line, they didn't want to do things that they KNEW weren't in the best interests of the kids in their care, or they stood up to management to defend conditions. Teachers who willingly, year after year, gave up hours of their time to do revision clubs/educational visits etc before and Afterschool and even in school holiday, for no extra pay, but 'made a fuss' when they questioned having to do another open evening. There's plenty of tactics management can employ to make your life so miserable you will leave - give you a timetable filled with the most difficult groups (then say your class management is the problem), constant scrutiny of students work and your marking, keep your stress levels through the roof with continuous monitoring, unrealistic targets, burden of evidencing, for PT teachers (because it's often older women who've got kids who are targetted), changing your days off or organising your TT so it is impossible to sort childcare. It's utterly vile. I've seen some amazing teachers broken by this process. It's very easy to make a teachers life so miserable that they'll leave of their own accord without any formal capability procedure at all.

Most people when talking about teaching being a secure job, are not talking about the impossibility to be managed out or let go. They mean in any economy. Teachers will always be needed. There is a supply issue with teachers. Thus, you'll always be needed.

Also, sick leave. You get fuck tons of that.

Once you've been managed out in this way, is it hard to find another position?

Few managers and few headteachers will go down the capability route unless they feel that they have absolutely no choice. It's so much hassle

It’s funny how it’s always women over 50 who are managed out. Enough for the unions to be concerned.

It’s sexism and ageism in one. These people aren’t being managed out because they are crap? It’s because they are expensive and ‘past it’ . Just like witches really😡