To think it’s actually easy to get rid of a teacher?

[Rockrollrock]

I think it’s poorly understood how insecure a teachers job actually is. A headteacher can start capability procedures based on quite spurious evidence and once capability is an established fact, your only option is to resign.

So while teachers are rarely dismissed, many are managed out.

@HipTightOnions

The fact is the workload for teaching is so intense and so endless that no matter how good you are, you can never do everything you are supposed to...It means it's easy to find evidence of not doing the job 'properly' if you don't like someone.

Yes, this is the issue.

Absolutely agree with you. I never, and I mean never even get a third down my to do list without another 50 things added on. It is relentless and exhausting

With older, more expensive and often female teachers being in the line, they can't ALL be crap, surely?

www.sec-ed.co.uk/news/schools-targeting-older-teachers-for-capability-in-a-bid-to-avoid-higher-salary-costs

www.tes.com/news/capability-process-used-target-costly-staff

This how quickly it can be done:

Capability proceedings, which previously lasted around 20 weeks, are now supposed to be completed in four to 10 weeks. The limit of three hours of formal classroom observation a year was scrapped as part of the reforms.

But I’m not talking about people who can’t do the job.

Surely teachers can claim unfair dismissal the same as anyone else if they are doing their job and haven't done anything else to warrant dismissal?

I know a teacher who was dismissed, interestingly on what he and his wife (also a teacher) claimed were spurious grounds, the head didn't like him, wanted to bring one of her mates in to replace him (sounds familiar OP?!). Our group of friends have a lot of collective management experience so were horrified and we wanted to help him address this injustice. Except it turned out he had breached policy on more than one occasion, so actually he didn't have a leg to stand on. Whilst I do believe his HT was looking for a way to get rid of him, he made it easy for them to do so by breaching policy multiple times, which were legitimate sackable offences. Would be the same anywhere else.

I agree it's not difficult to get rid of a teacher, but it can be difficult to replace them with a better teacher. There are chronic shortages of good teachers in some subjects so getting rid of under-performers doesn't always lead to a better outcome.

Happened to me. 50 plus, new head, too expensive. I had the best results in the cohort but all over 50’s were picked off one by one. It was the worst experience of my life. My colleague took their own life. How these people live with themselves I’ll never know.
In a lovely school now but I know that if my head ever leaves my cards will probably be marked again.
I don’t recommend teaching to anyone.

I was a cover teacher, put on informal capability just before Christmas last year. Just gave my notice 3 days later , I couldn’t see myself passing

It does take a few weeks - that may seem quick to a teacher, but it's a long time in a child's education, especially if it then takes a few more weeks to get a replacement.

It’s quite easy to get of if any employee. Teachers aren’t a special breed.

So why are so few teachers dismissed for poor performance?

I think older (ie more expensive) teachers can be identified as 'under performing' because they may not be enthused about reinventing their teaching every 5 minutes under the latest trend

Or, some older teachers refuse to modernise in any way, still teach the way they did 30 years ago, complete with all their old fashioned ways of thinking. One teacher happily told the class, the reason the boy in the story was sad was because his mum was a single parent so they must have no money. Oh and kept referring to my daughter as “handicapped”.

Only in my local authority there was a very generous early retirement/voluntary redundancy scheme for teachers. Decent money. Additional years added to their pensions.

Same here. Our school had 4 teachers “retired” at the end of one school year, and returned to teach part time as supply teachers, apparently for a short time, but we’re now in the 4th year of their “retirement”

@preemadinna

It does take a few weeks - that may seem quick to a teacher, but it's a long time in a child's education, especially if it then takes a few more weeks to get a replacement.

I'm so sorry, but 😂😂😂😂😂 at the idea that you can replace a teacher in a few weeks. I don't think you meant it in a bad way, but it's such an understatement.

Even if there wasn't a recruitment and retention crisis, it takes about a term to go through the process of employing a new teacher. From advertising, to interviews, and the fact that there are only 3 dates by which you can hand your notice in each year. If you're able to find a teacher and interview them and they accept the job offer, they then have to serve their half a term (minimum) notice at their current school.

It seems that older female teachers are "managed out" usually. However I've noticed in my current school it seems to be any member of staff who's face doesn't fit, I've been here since September and a TA and teacher have been treated unreasonably, gone on sick and eventually resigned. It's scary.

boredzelda you were quoting me there I think, about the new fads, followed by your comment 'or they refuse to modernise'. It's not an either or. Both can be and are true. My point was that whilst of course there will be some 'dinosaurs' with v old fashioned attitudes and prejudices, unless they do or say something actually harmful or discriminatory, that should not be grounds for dismissal. It is good for students to understand that much of the world will hold views they may not understand and / or agree with. It does them no harm to have some lessons taught in a more traditional way. Not every lesson in every subject benefits from being revamped and reinvented. That's not 'refusing to modernise' it's recognising tat there can be value in older things too. (whether that's methods or people!!)

In my first three years of teaching I went from being a promising and good teacher to a failing one and then an excellent one. 3 different schools. The middle school showed me just how easy it is to destroy a teacher’s confidence, mental health and ability to function in a few easy steps. It took about 3 weeks and involved many underhanded and bullying tactics. It was just a toxic place run by a sociopath.

He had me over a barrel because I was still an nqt (had started the first teaching job part-way through the year) and I needed him to sign me off, something he threatened not to do… I couldn’t leave without this signature but it took an enormous fight and union involvement to get it. As soon as I got it I handed in my notice and was luckily offered a job at a fantastic school a week later, where I have now spent 5 happy years.

My advice to anyone being ‘managed out’ is as follows:

1. speak to union
2. get out ASAP and find a different school
3. keep doing things that you’re proud of so that you have something to take to the next place. If SLT want to tell you you’re shit they will, so your job is to remember you’re not (unless you are, but I think that probably becomes apparent pretty early in your career, not when you suddenly hit 50 or look boot-faced when presented with bullshit new magical teaching methods).

Oh and it’s true about the Kate Middleton dresses and dyed curls. But only if you care about being promoted. I don’t- I’d rather top up my income in other ways out of the classroom.

I had a teacher who did nothing for two years and was rude and unprofessional and the school did nothing

Watching with interest (and some trepidation!) as a 50+ teacher

It is good for students to understand that much of the world will hold views they may not understand and / or agree with.

It is not good for impressionable young children, particularly in primary, to be taught using outdated stereotypes. Primary school teachers taking a “boys will be boys” attitude to girls being mercilessly teased or telling boys they shouldn’t cry when they fall down. Reinforcing gender stereotypes and turning a blind eye to ableism because “thats’s just what kids do”

It does them no harm to have some lessons taught in a more traditional way.

It does a lot of harm. Not just the reinforcement of stereotypes, but when kids who need the tech are not allowed to use it. Or when the kid with autism or ADHD is just “being naughty” because those things are just made up fads.

@spudjulia

‘Even if there wasn't a recruitment and retention crisis, it takes about a term to go through the process of employing a new teacher. From advertising, to interviews, and the fact that there are only 3 dates by which you can hand your notice in each year. If you're able to find a teacher and interview them and they accept the job offer, they then have to serve their half a term (minimum) notice at their current school’

• Unless the successful candidate is already onsite as agency (and was the money-saving reason a teacher was performance managed out in the first place).

If you’ve ever seen foxhounds chasing their quarry - that’s a HT locked on to their next victim.

I would never work in teaching for this reason alone.

But once again zelda you are taking a black and white approach. Firstly, I'm speaking about secondary, not primary, which is my area of experience. Secondly, in all things there is nuance and degree. Students will be exposed to dozens of teachers, coaches, employers, lecturers, colleagues, bosses, friends and potential partners in their lives. If some of those people present views or attitudes that are out of step or simply different, they have to learn to navigate that. It may involve some hard thinking, some challenge, some confusion along the way. Thats perfectly OK. How can we expect young people to learn to think and develop their own identity if they only ever get served up a monochrome diet of identikit views and approaches? As to learning / teaching styles, again, no one (well, not me anyway) is denying a laptop to those that need it or not providing adapted resources or whatever is required but again, if some lessons every now again are not 'fun' or interactive or expect people above the age of 11 to sit quietly for 40 mins and actively listen, why is that so awful? Some kids bloody hate group work and activity challenges and carousel learning and One Note. They like being actually told and taught stuff by someone who knows more than they do and can communicate it simply, with expertise and passion. There's room for it all. Not everything can or will suit everyone but we now seem to operate in a world where no-one is allowed to feel a little unsure or stretched or even, God forbid bored occasionally. And schools do use this as one mechanism to lighten the salary bill, to get back to the original point.

I can't see why being over 50 would make you less sensitive to the needs of an autistic student than being in your 20s.
For one thing, we're more likely to have children of our own and will have first hand experience of a variety of learning issues.

Absolutely. My kids are now yr7/8 and as they have got closer to the age of kids I teach I am much much better and understanding issues kids that age have. I have more than once had to have a quiet word with an nqt who wants to be really harsh on a kid because their homework or sports kit has been left at the wrong parent's house, or that actually organising a 2 week timetable of everything is really very difficult for a child with maybe mild ASD who struggles with processing instructions, sequencing etc. They (as I once did) assume they just 'ought' to be able to do it by now. All these soft skills are not quantifiable though and sadly, often not valued.

@HugeAckmansWife

But once again zelda you are taking a black and white approach. Firstly, I'm speaking about secondary, not primary, which is my area of experience. Secondly, in all things there is nuance and degree. Students will be exposed to dozens of teachers, coaches, employers, lecturers, colleagues, bosses, friends and potential partners in their lives. If some of those people present views or attitudes that are out of step or simply different, they have to learn to navigate that. It may involve some hard thinking, some challenge, some confusion along the way. Thats perfectly OK. How can we expect young people to learn to think and develop their own identity if they only ever get served up a monochrome diet of identikit views and approaches? As to learning / teaching styles, again, no one (well, not me anyway) is denying a laptop to those that need it or not providing adapted resources or whatever is required but again, if some lessons every now again are not 'fun' or interactive or expect people above the age of 11 to sit quietly for 40 mins and actively listen, why is that so awful? Some kids bloody hate group work and activity challenges and carousel learning and One Note. They like being actually told and taught stuff by someone who knows more than they do and can communicate it simply, with expertise and passion. There's room for it all. Not everything can or will suit everyone but we now seem to operate in a world where no-one is allowed to feel a little unsure or stretched or even, God forbid bored occasionally. And schools do use this as one mechanism to lighten the salary bill, to get back to the original point.

I was about to write something along these lines, but you put it perfectly.

I have worked in a school for the past 10 years and a relative of mine has worked in one for over 30 years and we have found it very difficult to get rid of any members of staff without having to go through very lengthy and unpleasant procedures (which we have never done).

The procedures are the same as any other workplace:. You have to identify what the problem is, set targets and allow the teacher time and support to improve.

If that is too hard for you to ever do then it's likely other management failures contribute to teachers struggling at that school.

Thank you pottedpalm

I've been managed out. It's very common when teachers get too expensive and SLT want a cheaper option.

It's not at all nice and the evidence gathering they do can be very difficult to deal with.

If you ever feel it's happening to you - it more than likely is. Document EVERYTHING. Email yourself everything and make sure you follow up any verbal conversation with an email. Make sure your union fees are fully paid up.