AIBU to think that team should be available at 9am for meetings?

[Overthebow]

I set up a weekly client meeting for my project team at 9am. I have had a decline from a key team member as it clashes with school drop of time. AIBU to think that 9am is a standard working time and my team should be available to attend important client calls at this time, unless they have a formal working hours agreement in place?

I hope the OP is not interested in staff retention.

Yes I could start the meeting earlier (if the client agreed), but then someone else would have to start work earlier than they like to start, and outside what is usually considered working hours in the UK.

If the employee's contribution isn't important enough to need to be at the meeting from the start, one has to wonder if they might be considered expendable altogether sooner or later?

Overthebow if you look at the response on this thread from people in similar working environments to yours, you will see that YAN being considered U at all.

What your thread has done is highlight the different working cultures in different settings.

For your working world (and mine and that of many others) YANBU at all.

Why don’t you validate if this REALLY needs to be a meeting or if your group can yuse another collaboration method.

But what is usually considered working hours? You've said someone else would have to work late if you change the meeting time, so what makes their time late and not this time early?
Your staff are used to a pattern allowing for a more flexible approach to getting the job done. You've decided this isn't what you want. Has this been discussed at a senior level, and a decision reached on it? Your contract is at fault here.

@Overthebow

Yes I could start the meeting earlier (if the client agreed), but then someone else would have to start work earlier than they like to start, and outside what is usually considered working hours in the UK.

Have you talked to your declining team member about it yet, @Overthebow? Because surely as grown adults in business, you should be able to find a way round this together, it's in both of your interests to keep your business running smoothly, isn't it?

@Walkingwounded

Overthebow if you look at the response on this thread from people in similar working environments to yours, you will see that YAN being considered U at all.

What your thread has done is highlight the different working cultures in different settings.

For your working world (and mine and that of many others) YANBU at all.

That is very good point. We are expected to be flexible and be able to be available when the client needs (within reason), unless someone has an official agreed flexible working agreement in place. We are paid well for this. People who refuse to be flexible don’t get on well here and usually don’t go very far. It probably is different in different sectors and types of work!

We don’t have set times in our contracts

Surely this is the issue?!

We don’t have set times in our contracts

So people could work 11pm to 7am if they wanted? Really?

Sometimes I even start a meeting at 7am so they don't have to stay late. These things are common in a global company.

I once worked on a project that required meetings between people in Asia and Europe. And we had several "wah but 9 is so early" "waah i need to have 4 coffees before i start" until eventually one of the managers in Asia said "don't you ever spout bullshit about human rights in China and how much work they do when you're forcing my people to stay until 7pm just because you can't get up at 7am"

From then on we had meetings that would finish by 6pm latest in Asia, and occasionally started at 7am in Europe so the pain was shared. Which is how it should have been from the beginning.

We don’t have set times in our contracts.

but i'm going to assume you do have the "other duties and so on as required"? that type of thing?

Under which this meeting falls. How about the other parent of his child steps in for that one day per week?

Yes you'd have thought if no set times it would be x hours a day must meet y business needs or whatever at a minimum.

@Brefugee

We don’t have set times in our contracts.

but i'm going to assume you do have the "other duties and so on as required"? that type of thing?

Under which this meeting falls. How about the other parent of his child steps in for that one day per week?

How do you know that they don't? Or that the other parent is still around?

Regardless of the working environment I think it is unreasonable for you to expect a parent to put work above everything else on 'work days'. Work is not more important than your children on any day at least it shouldn't be!

Equally, it makes no odds that it is a man, why should it?

The school run, core hours etc don't really matter. It's all detail that doesn't change anything. It's added because there's always been a tenancy to look down on people who leave earlier or start later to accommodate family.

Op agreed, with a client that this meeting could be at 9am without checking with a 'key person'. That key person is not available to work. Doesn't matter what the reason is.

She knows there's not set hours in the company. So she should know, you can't just assume someone can be available.

Most people would not change their working hours, because someone had gone and agrees a meeting without discussing it before the invite was sent.

My MD, who is my line manager, wouldn't even do that to me or my team. Especially, if we were key people who needed to be there.

Dialing in from outside your home isn't ideal. More so if you aren't just listening.

Op could have spoken to this key person before hand.

The key person could perhaps join a bit later. Could listen in (not ideal) until they get to their desk.

What would the client or have done if 9am was in this person's working hours, but they already had a weekly meeting that could not be moved at this time. Or doesn't start until 10am?

Its really poor to commit someone else to any meeting at anytime without speaking to them.

I suspect ops annoyance is that she will now have to go back to the client and tell them they need to change it.

It doesn't really matter why this person is not in work at that time. They are not in work. It doesn't matter why their working day is structured as it is.

That doesn't mean they are slacking or expecting other people to pick up extra work. Do people have a go at part time workers for not being in when they want them?

@Goldenbear

Equally, it makes no odds that it is a man, why should it?

No of course it shouldn't, but I would bet its disproportionate women who need flexibility because their partners have super important can't possibly be flexible jobs.

@Nyxs

The school run, core hours etc don't really matter. It's all detail that doesn't change anything. It's added because there's always been a tenancy to look down on people who leave earlier or start later to accommodate family.

Op agreed, with a client that this meeting could be at 9am without checking with a 'key person'. That key person is not available to work. Doesn't matter what the reason is.

She knows there's not set hours in the company. So she should know, you can't just assume someone can be available.

Most people would not change their working hours, because someone had gone and agrees a meeting without discussing it before the invite was sent.

My MD, who is my line manager, wouldn't even do that to me or my team. Especially, if we were key people who needed to be there.

Dialing in from outside your home isn't ideal. More so if you aren't just listening.

Op could have spoken to this key person before hand.

The key person could perhaps join a bit later. Could listen in (not ideal) until they get to their desk.

What would the client or have done if 9am was in this person's working hours, but they already had a weekly meeting that could not be moved at this time. Or doesn't start until 10am?

Its really poor to commit someone else to any meeting at anytime without speaking to them.

I suspect ops annoyance is that she will now have to go back to the client and tell them they need to change it.

It doesn't really matter why this person is not in work at that time. They are not in work. It doesn't matter why their working day is structured as it is.

That doesn't mean they are slacking or expecting other people to pick up extra work. Do people have a go at part time workers for not being in when they want them?

Why should the meeting time revolve around one person? It's not unusual for some people to have meetings most of the day, and as OP has explained several times, the meeting is at this time for a reason. 9 to 5 is generally standard office hours, why should people internationally stay late and work outside of theirs?

Yanbu.

It’s a great perk to be able to drop and collect your kids from school when wfh, one that I’m really enjoying and taking advantage of. But if a client requested a meeting at a time to suit them, everyone in the team would make themselves available, however inconvenient. They pay the bills and we work to suit them.

This sort of attitude and sense entitlement is what puts employers off the idea of flexible working.

Why should the meeting time revolve around one person? It's not unusual for some people to have meetings most of the day, and as OP has explained several times, the meeting is at this time for a reason. 9 to 5 is generally standard office hours, why should people internationally stay late and work outside of theirs?

Because op insists they are a key person.

Would you expect teachers to attend a meeting every Saturday? Because another teacher has decided that works best.

If this person was part time and this was on a non working day, would you expect them to attend? Especially when nor consulted before.

This is outside this person's working hours. Therefore they have no obligation to attend. Unless it says in their contract, that they must.

By the sounds of it. Its not. I have in mu contract that I need to be available outside working hours. I accept that because of my job and the level I work at.

This person is not in work at this time. So they aren't working.

Oh and I would hope the client had the sense to check with key people, in their own organisation that they were happy with this time as well.

Also a 9am meeting is a pain for preparation/final read through of notes. You’re basically making everyone start at 8.30.

@Nyxs

Why should the meeting time revolve around one person? It's not unusual for some people to have meetings most of the day, and as OP has explained several times, the meeting is at this time for a reason. 9 to 5 is generally standard office hours, why should people internationally stay late and work outside of theirs?

Because op insists they are a key person.

Would you expect teachers to attend a meeting every Saturday? Because another teacher has decided that works best.

If this person was part time and this was on a non working day, would you expect them to attend? Especially when nor consulted before.

This is outside this person's working hours. Therefore they have no obligation to attend. Unless it says in their contract, that they must.

By the sounds of it. Its not. I have in mu contract that I need to be available outside working hours. I accept that because of my job and the level I work at.

This person is not in work at this time. So they aren't working.

No one is asking anyone to come in on a day off, so that's a pointless and false equivalence. If someone is part time and does have agreed and stipulated hours that is also different. I'm not sure if any contracts stipulate that a particular meeting must be attended, but I would be surprised if reasonable business needs or something similar wasn't mentioned; which this is. Honestly all of this whataboutery and ridiculous excuses for a meeting at 9am. Astounding.

@Nyxs

The school run, core hours etc don't really matter. It's all detail that doesn't change anything. It's added because there's always been a tenancy to look down on people who leave earlier or start later to accommodate family.

Op agreed, with a client that this meeting could be at 9am without checking with a 'key person'. That key person is not available to work. Doesn't matter what the reason is.

She knows there's not set hours in the company. So she should know, you can't just assume someone can be available.

Most people would not change their working hours, because someone had gone and agrees a meeting without discussing it before the invite was sent.

My MD, who is my line manager, wouldn't even do that to me or my team. Especially, if we were key people who needed to be there.

Dialing in from outside your home isn't ideal. More so if you aren't just listening.

Op could have spoken to this key person before hand.

The key person could perhaps join a bit later. Could listen in (not ideal) until they get to their desk.

What would the client or have done if 9am was in this person's working hours, but they already had a weekly meeting that could not be moved at this time. Or doesn't start until 10am?

Its really poor to commit someone else to any meeting at anytime without speaking to them.

I suspect ops annoyance is that she will now have to go back to the client and tell them they need to change it.

It doesn't really matter why this person is not in work at that time. They are not in work. It doesn't matter why their working day is structured as it is.

That doesn't mean they are slacking or expecting other people to pick up extra work. Do people have a go at part time workers for not being in when they want them?

100% this.

OP has stated there are no set/contracted hours. Therefore the key person is entirely within their rights to say “this time doesn’t work for me”.

Clients are human beings too and I’m sure it will be fine if the client is presented with other options.

If OP had checked with everyone, including the key person, before setting up a reoccurring meeting they would not be in this pickle now. It’s common courtesy.