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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be really worried about the NHS this winter

240 replies

AtlasPine · 31/10/2021 15:58

Just that really. Lots of issues around GP access, backlogs of people waiting for treatments and overstretched A&E departments. Flu season coming, Covid cases rising, staffing problems linked to Brexit and the rise of private practices offering better terms and conditions to doctors.

What can we do to support the NHS?

Vaccinations (flu and Covid) and look after ourselves as much as possible I suppose. I can’t afford private health care like most here I suspect.

OP posts:
HannibalHayeski · 31/10/2021 18:12

@Franklin12

The US system is not the only option. Stop going on about it as though it’s the only choice.
But what option do you think our current Kleptocracy would go for?

Don't be an idiot.

Pieceofpurplesky · 31/10/2021 18:14

Nye Bevan was a visionary who wanted healthcare free at the point of delivery. The problem with that is that medicine and technology changed beyond all expectations. Average age of death as just one point is ten years higher. We are a society of haves and have nots. The PP who said she paid for private when some of us could not afford that.

We should have free healthcare for those who need it but the whole system needs reviewing

TheHateIsNotGood · 31/10/2021 18:15

The NHS has changed dramatically in the last 40 years since I was an A&E emergency hospitalization.

The rafts of tests available, not just on request but as a preventative measure is unrecognizeable to the virtually none available in previous decades.

All the digital equipment used - even temperature and pulse is taken this way, not the oral thermometers and a thumb and a watch that was used not so long ago; nevermind ultrasound, MRI, etc, etc.
How many millions and billions do these, now considered normally-used, pieces of tech/machinery cost?

These are some of the many improvements that have been made over the years - but they cost, a lot. There's an expectation that you can just rock up to your GP and be referred for a 'test' that could cost many thousands; and if you don't get that test, then the NHS is disintegrating.

The only thing I miss from the good old days (sic.) is the standards of cleanliness delivered by the NHS Ward Domestic Staff (who also did the Tea Rounds), the very strict Matrons who kept a tight ship and the sort who you'd trust your life to and lastly the rigid Visiting Times - 2 x 1hr slots limited to max 2 visitors.

When you're really sick, you don't want any hordes either yours or other patients' - they're far more useful when you're discharged aren't they?

justasking111 · 31/10/2021 18:17

Ticklish problem in Wales the socialist Government wil baulk at a two tier service. Waiting lists for private consultant appointments have gone from two weeks to two months. The private sector couldn't cope at the moment we would have to privatise existing NHS hospitals

girlmom21 · 31/10/2021 18:19

I suppose using 101 as much as possible is a pretty good way of relieving pressure on the health service Grin

SweetBabyCheeses99 · 31/10/2021 18:20

Is your name Amanda Pritchard? Are you paid £200k pa to worry about these things? Then it’s not your problem! We pay more than enough in taxes and the NHS has had plenty of billions. Not our responsibility!

megletthesecond · 31/10/2021 18:24

"Not our responsibility!"
Well it is.

I just hope you are keeping yourself healthy and fit to minimise using the NHS over your lifetime. (As I am, the less chance I need to use it the more they can do for other people).

jacks11 · 31/10/2021 18:24

@StripeyFloorboards

I am fed up of hearing about how we can save the NHS. The NHS should be saving us, the customers, not the other way around and if they can't do that, perhaps we can get a massive tax refund and spend that money going private instead!

This. So people should try to avoid being ill in order to protect the health service, which we pay for? Can anyone else see how backwards that sounds?

Well, there are several issues with that summary of the state of affairs. Yes, lots of money is spent on the NHS. But, a lower % of GDP per head of population than a significant proportion of most developed nation. We have a significant staff shortage. And bed shortage. It really is not a case of everyone out playing golf/having coffee and cake whilst patients are left suffering at home waiting for a clinic appointment/their surgery or are stuck in trolleys in A&E or unable to see their GP.

Many of these issues have their origin in healthcare policy and so are largely due to political decisions regarding care models. Add in poor workforce planning, which is partly due to the fact that UK Plc did not anticipate that we might struggle to attract workers from overseas- our “go to” plan when we run short. And partly because, for some reason and despite plenty of warnings, the powers that be chose to ignore or did not anticipate the increasing exodus of staff who leave their professions, the increasing number retiring the minute it is feasible, those leaving substantive posts for locum roles (can walk out at the end of the day without all the additional work, extra headaches, being left to implement all sorts of changes- good, bad and completely terrible), nor the increase in those leaving for abroad. Many, if not most, of these were not decisions made solely, and in many cases not at all by, NHS management.

Many people underestimate how much private healthcare costs. I do some private work and I know how shocked some of those who are self-funding can be by the total cost of their care. Insurance can solve that issue- but if you have chronic/multiple health problems, certain disabilities, once you get to a certain age etc the cost of those premiums can be prohibitively expensive. Or not obtainable. Or obtainable but your chronic health problems excluded. And if you’ve ever had to deal with health insurance you’ll know how hard they can try to exclude all sorts of things from their policies and that they can be quite complicated- I’ve seen a fair few patients fall foul of not fully understanding T&C’s/exclusion/ policy wording.

Add in, that it is also true that complete privatisation is unlikely to mean costs lowering. We still won’t have any more staff, and there would need to be serious investment in infrastructure. Because, now the private sector wouldn’t be seeing the smaller numbers of patients, all planned/elective care which is much easier to manage and co-ordinate, which the private sector can easily manage right now.

Of course, we can- and I would argue should- look at alternative models such as those in France, Germany or even Italy. We could also stop trying to be all things to all people- maybe we could have a “core service” that is free at point if need and funded for national insurance and a shared model, or other form, of insurance for the “nice to haves”. I’m not saying that we have to do that, or even to copy another model (the French model does have it’s issues, as friends living there have discovered) and I have worked in Germany and it’s not all milk and honey either. There are positives and negatives in all systems.

We could also hope that patients could use the NHS more wisely than many do. I can already hear the howls of protest- but it IS an issue. It may be a sizeable minority, but at times of increased strain it is more problematic than at other times. The misuse ranges from wasting prescriptions; attending GP or A&E for things which could be managed by self-care as they really don’t require medical input or things that do need seen but could wait for a routine appointment etc; not turning up to appointments is rife in both primary and secondary care. In the area I work it’s just over 19% of out-patient clinic appointments missed, and 1 in 9 radiology appointments (x-ray, ultrasound, CT or MRI). My GP shows their stats and not dissimilar. My friend, a GP, has been frustrated at the number of DNA’s for her minor surgery/joint injection list (run in the practice) and also for coil/contraceptive implants. It’s wasting huge amount of GP and nurse time (as sometimes both required) and these are longer appointments. So much so that the practice are reconsidering whether to put these services on hold.

Sitting just one of these issues will not be enough. But to fix the problem faced by the NHS, to solve the things preventing the care from being all that we might wish at times, does require a proper understanding of the reasons fir it’s failings, the difficulties it faces, but also the things it does well (and why it does it well). I’m my view, the NHS currently hirples on largely on the good will of it’s staff and public support- both of which are rapidly coming to the end of their tether.

FreeElf · 31/10/2021 18:31

I’ve thought for a while, even pre covid, the government are deliberately letting the NHS fail so that the public will be glad for it to be privatised. There is so much wastage and poor management, it’s sad, and demoralising for those who are working their absolute hardest often on low pay.

GreenLunchBox · 31/10/2021 18:35

In the area I work it’s just over 19% of out-patient clinic appointments missed, and 1 in 9 radiology appointments (x-ray, ultrasound, CT or MRI).*

You need to look at your appointment system. Nobody misses appointments like this for shits and giggles. The amount of patients I have spoken to who have complained when we received a letter from the hospital informing us they have DNA'd that never actually received an invitation in the first place is unreal. A very very high number.

frumpety · 31/10/2021 18:48

Winter being a tough time in the NHS is nothing new, its been happening for years. There are not enough beds and not enough staff to provide the level of care that most people working in it would like to be able to provide.
Add to that closures of council run step down/rehab beds and not much money in the pot for social services, plus a crisis in staffing in the private care providers which mean they are not able to provide packages of care, people end up stuck in a hospital bed when they should be at home or in another care setting.
We should be looking at funding more admission avoidance teams, to prevent people being admitted if it is safe to provide short term support in the home, and more discharge support teams to get people who have been admitted, home safely and quicker.

Bagamoyo1 · 31/10/2021 18:55

Stop smoking
Lose weight
Drink less alcohol

AtlasPine · 31/10/2021 18:58

@Draggondragon

It's easy. Stop worshipping a cruel and broken third world system and bang your saucepans over a deserving cause. The NHS is a festering pile of shit and is killing people. People like the OP romanticising it like it's some sort of sweet old grandma are a big part of the problem.
I hardly think I’m romanticising the NHS. And I strongly disagree about the festering pile of shit statement. It’s a bit of a beast but it does work well in lots of ways. I just think this winter will be particularly tricky for the reasons I outlined.
OP posts:
Franklin12 · 31/10/2021 19:00

I do think with MH issues, much much older population people do forget their appointments. My DH has to go through her appointments a number of times with. E before it sinks in what she needs to do.

Appointments are still missed though. Add in people in the NHS not owning an issue and passing it around and around and you have some problems.

There is also the fact that regardless of what you do because it is ‘free’ there are no real consequences to not turning up.

People will always take advantage when it’s free. A prime example is an all inclusive holiday. People are literally piling up with food and drink. After all it’s free... I went for my covid jab a few months ago. The guy in front of me nabbed all the masks when the receptionist’s back was turned and when my son worked at the supermarket they literally had to nail down the hand washes at the beginning of the lockdown. People will pinching anything they could get their hands on.

AtlasPine · 31/10/2021 19:01

@Bagamoyo1

Stop smoking Lose weight Drink less alcohol
I agree for some - This. And be more active. Especially us older people who have perhaps enjoyed too much food and sedentary lifestyles for too long.

This would help.

OP posts:
Franklin12 · 31/10/2021 19:01

The NHS is always overwhelmed every single sodding winter.

MareofBeasttown · 31/10/2021 19:02

I am flying back to my "third world" home country for surgery to reduce the burden on the NHS:)

Fizbosshoes · 31/10/2021 19:06

In the area I work it’s just over 19% of out-patient clinic appointments missed, and 1 in 9 radiology appointments (x-ray, ultrasound, CT or MRI). My GP shows their stats and not dissimilar. My friend, a GP, has been frustrated at the number of DNA’s for her minor surgery/joint injection list (run in the practice) and also for coil/contraceptive implants

My DD had a series of treatment for a dental condition at our local hospital. They only had appointments during the school/work day and as the hospital apts didn't generally run on time, and the hospital was not convenient to work or school, each apt necessitated me taking a day off work, and she would miss around 2 hrs of school. Some times this was not feasible (for example exam week) or if I could not take that day off work. I would always call 1- 2 weeks in advance of the appointment to cancel or rearrange. It didn't matter whether I left a message or spoke to an actual person the message never got through, and we were given a lecture by the consultant about not showing up. The appointment letter said to call the number if you couldn't make it but there was literally no point!! That wasn't an isolated incident - it happened 3 or 4 times.
It wastes the drs time, it delays other peoples apts, and there is no way I accept responsibility for a no show when I followed the instructions on the letter on what to do if you can't attend.

CorrBlimeyGG · 31/10/2021 19:08

I can’t afford private health care like most here I suspect.

Unless you're in London, it's unlikely to be able to help you anyway. We've recently been through a period of acute illness, and none of the three private hospitals in our city could accommodate our loved one. Most private providers are focused on non urgent and non complex surgeries, not acute and critical care.

Franklin12 · 31/10/2021 19:13

Does anyone know how many people actually have private healthcare?

LakieLady · 31/10/2021 19:14

@lonelyapple

We already do enough! We pay shitloads of tax to fund the NHS yet it's never enough. I am fed up of hearing about how we can save the NHS. The NHS should be saving us, the customers, not the other way around and if they can't do that, perhaps we can get a massive tax refund and spend that money going private instead!
And what about those of us who can't afford to go private? Do we just suffer in pain and die prematurely?
AtlasPine · 31/10/2021 19:15

@CorrBlimeyGG

I can’t afford private health care like most here I suspect.

Unless you're in London, it's unlikely to be able to help you anyway. We've recently been through a period of acute illness, and none of the three private hospitals in our city could accommodate our loved one. Most private providers are focused on non urgent and non complex surgeries, not acute and critical care.

Sorry to hear that. I am in London and already paying thousands for basic dental care which I can’t get on the nhs.
OP posts:
katesbushh · 31/10/2021 19:16

Has Mercybooth been along yet? She loves to hate the NHS.

The NHS isn't fit for purpose. I've very recently left after 20 years service. My mental health was taking too much of a battering.
I don't even know where to begin. I don't think it can be fixed.

To help the NHS in the first instance.
People should stop going to ED for their 4 month knee pain (this was a thing way before the pandemic) stop attending ED for a cold, stop stabbing eachother and turn up to their actual appointments.

LakieLady · 31/10/2021 19:18

@GreenLunchBox

In the area I work it’s just over 19% of out-patient clinic appointments missed, and 1 in 9 radiology appointments (x-ray, ultrasound, CT or MRI).*

You need to look at your appointment system. Nobody misses appointments like this for shits and giggles. The amount of patients I have spoken to who have complained when we received a letter from the hospital informing us they have DNA'd that never actually received an invitation in the first place is unreal. A very very high number.

Whenever I've missed a GP appointment, it's been because I've been unable to get through on the phone to cancel it.

And when I missed a hospital appointment, it was because the letter telling me that the time of it had been moved from the afternoon to the morning had only been posted the day before, and my postie doesn't come until after 1.30.

Dreamstate · 31/10/2021 19:19

@HannibalHayeski

It's been the government's plan all along.

Make sure the NHS fails (whilst paying lip service to it), and then they'll have to come in and privatise it to "save us all".

Look at the number of ministers who have spoken about an "insurance based system". I.e., something where their investors get to make fortunes at the expense of us.

(And don't expect them to cut taxes when they do)

Well if your paying taxes you are paying for the NHS to provide you with care. The difference is your paying hell of alot less than a private insurance system.

Either way u are paying for your healthcare. We are always told tories underfunding the NHS well we you prepared to pay more in taxes ....how much more? At some point the amount you pay in taxes would be more than cost of private insurance.

Yet I'll bet you no matter how much money you throw at the NHS the quality will not improve.

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