To be really worried about the NHS this winter

[AtlasPine]

Just that really. Lots of issues around GP access, backlogs of people waiting for treatments and overstretched A&E departments. Flu season coming, Covid cases rising, staffing problems linked to Brexit and the rise of private practices offering better terms and conditions to doctors.

What can we do to support the NHS?

Vaccinations (flu and Covid) and look after ourselves as much as possible I suppose. I can’t afford private health care like most here I suspect.

Virtually every European health system is better than the NHS. It’s way past time to reform it. I have friends from various parts of Europe and they are always appalled by how terrible the NHS is compared with their home countries’ systems. Doesn’t matter how much money is chucked at it, without reform it will be wasted.

@Theluggage15 funny how the reforms are always either introducing a new layer of bureaucracy or private shareholders to make profit and rationing healthcare to poor people far more.
Its like the idea of reforming schools by introducing academies which always mean new uniforms, managers on high salaries and expulsion of SEN kids

Oh and international comparisons of health systems don't agree with you either.

[quote frumpety]The other thing that niggles me about doing away with the NHS, is losing the NHS's buying power when it comes to medication.

lowdownnhs.info/drugs/billions-are-spent-by-the-nhs-on-drugs-every-year-but-how-does-it-work/[/quote]
They're crap at buying power. Friend was head of buying at NHS hospital she was directed as who to use. Left went to work with a hospice charity again buying where she was free to negotiate haggle for everything from cotton wool to drugs

What can we do to support the NHS

Stop using a&e for minor ailments would be top of my list.

I took my son to A&E a few months ago. There was a wait of over 6 hours. Within about an hour of being there he was struggling to breath and going limp and he was rushed through onto the ward and ended up on oxygen for days. I was really surprised at how fantastic they were when the situation got serious.

However, the amount of people I heard asking the nurses how much longer it would be because they'd have to leave soon and things like that was ridiculous. If you can leave A&E because the wait is too long you don't need to bloody be there in the first place.

[quote julieca]@Theluggage15 funny how the reforms are always either introducing a new layer of bureaucracy or private shareholders to make profit and rationing healthcare to poor people far more.
Its like the idea of reforming schools by introducing academies which always mean new uniforms, managers on high salaries and expulsion of SEN kids[/quote]
We disagree about the data @julieca, but nonetheless, what do you suggest then if you’re so opposed to reforming the system to a copay or means tested model?

Poor people aren’t being especially well served by the NHS as it stands… being unable to access GP appointments, a 6 month lead time being considered “quick” for most referrals and a 2 year+ wait for mental health services, are they?

And this was all pre covid!

@julieca

Oh and international comparisons of health systems don't agree with you either.

Again I ask, what comparisons are you relying on for these statements? Can you provide a link to a valid source?

Julieca - so I am asking too. What would you do? The NHS is wasting millions, they are inefficient and often run little cottage industries and cannot see the wood for the trees. Like a lot of government depts no one wants to make a quick decision so have endless meetings about very little to ensure that their jobs are safe.

No country in the world as far as I am aware has a system like ours. I wonder why that is??

Its not the envy of the world. Its free and people use and abuse it because they know that they wont be fined, and that time wasters and even health tourists are rarely chased.

Throwing more money at a broken white elephant will not make it any better.

They're crap at buying power. Friend was head of buying at NHS hospital she was directed as who to use. Left went to work with a hospice charity again buying where she was free to negotiate haggle for everything from cotton wool to drugs

Agree - first thing I would do would be to get together a team of the most hard-nosed shark-like negotiators (maybe the big supermarkets could loan a few?) and really find the ways to do this.

It doesn't work terribly well with the 'postcode lottery' structure, which leaves regions doing their own thing, but I'm sure a way can be found round that.

@Franklin12

The US system is not the only option. Stop going on about it as though it’s the only choice.

The trouble is, it's mainly American firms being courted and taking contracts.

We are slowly going down the route, even if there are other paths available

Thing is Rose. The people in the NHS dont want change and efficiencies. So they carry on with the old ways and are as slow as snails and often very resistant to change.

(Big supplier to NHS for many many years - - dont do it anymore). I swore I would never work for a local or health authority. The time wasting was criminal.

Giving them more and more money will just involve more wastage. We need a cross party/even a refendum to discuss fixing the NHS and I honestly think some sort of co paying is the way forward. Allow people to manage their own health.

We are slowly going down other routes because we are not accepting that we need to change. We need to be clear and accepting of change and yes I do think that involves people putting their hands in their pockets for their own health.

Problem is many dont want to pay anything, point to others etc. NHS is a massive waste of money now.

@Franklin12 I have posted a number of times, including in answer directly to you, about what I would do.
I would get rid of the internal market that only creates another layer of bureaucracy. I would prosecute hard all the government corruption that has handed NHS money to their rich friends - PPE that could never be used, ventilators that were never built. Politicians need to know they will be prosecuted individually in court and that will stop this happening in future.
Anyone who think the current government, who are incredibly corrupt, would be able to manage any public service saving money is naive beyond belief. Our current government has handed nearly the whole of an annual NHS budget to rich friends, many of whom did not provide what they were supposed to.
We had firms contacting the government offering to provide emergency ventilators at cost. Their calls were not returned.
So please don't talk to me about waste.

@Franklin12

We are slowly going down other routes because we are not accepting that we need to change. We need to be clear and accepting of change and yes I do think that involves people putting their hands in their pockets for their own health.

Problem is many dont want to pay anything, point to others etc. NHS is a massive waste of money now.

Yes you think if people cant pay for healthcare then tough luck. Or if people to be able to pay for healthcare have to pull their kids out of all afterschool activities and turn down the heating, well tough luck. I suspect you are very rich.

@Franklin12

We are slowly going down other routes because we are not accepting that we need to change. We need to be clear and accepting of change and yes I do think that involves people putting their hands in their pockets for their own health.

Problem is many dont want to pay anything, point to others etc. NHS is a massive waste of money now.

I agree. I don't believe the NHS is fit for purpose anymore. And no, I'm not very rich. I'm a single parent on an average wage.

Well im sure this will help

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/care-homes-face-closure-sajid-25363798

Of course I am not very rich!! I am trying to have a sensible discussion about how to fix the NHS having worked with them for too many years than I care to remember.

This is why we cannot get past the left wing who dont look at the elephant in the room which is that regardless of how much is given to the NHS it will never be enough.

So can anyone give us an idea of how much it will cost for the average person if we get rid of the NHS ? I can't see the Government lowering taxes so it will be an additional charge on top of what you already pay out in tax and NI.

A means tested system does not equal = “if you can’t pay for your healthcare then tough luck”. We means test access to basically every other benefit in this country already, why should healthcare different?

Means tested means - those who are low income for whatever reason get state sponsored or subsidised care. Those who can afford it pay for private health insurance, which then alleviate pressure on public resources.

Plenty of countries run this model very successsfully,

Should have said we already means test access to basically every other benefit

Means tested means - those who are low income for whatever reason get state sponsored or subsidised care

Which definately means they wont get criticised or reminded every minute that their healthcare is subsidised and they should be grateful.....just like social housing tenants are told they should be grateful for their "subsidised" housing.

So basically the attitudes to poorer NHS patients will remain the same!

Family in Ireland pay. Son was poorly visit to GP who diagnosed chickenpox the bill €60 . There's health care for those unable to pay

@justasking111

Family in Ireland pay. Son was poorly visit to GP who diagnosed chickenpox the bill €60 . There's health care for those unable to pay

@justasking111 just curious about how it works - who decides if you can't pay? Do you have to be on benefits or is there some other threshold?

I'm fairly middle income on paper and would never qualify for benefits but I could never pay outright for our healthcare. I have a child with SEN in and out of the NHS and I have a long term condition where I have regular health care appointments.

Just wondering how many people would just have the money to pay? The very poor would be subsidised but many people wouldn't be able to pay who on paper would be expected to presumably?

This is why we cannot get past the left wing who dont look at the elephant in the room which is that regardless of how much is given to the NHS it will never be enough

I am left of centre and have worked in the NHS for a couple of decades, nobody who works in the NHS thinks it is perfect. Policy mistakes have been made along the way by parties of all persuasions, for instance bed numbers were reduced far too much, every successive Government has known that the population is ageing ( it has gradually increased so not a sudden suprise ) and was well aware of the impact that would have on the need for healthcare provision especially in the Winter months.
Private healthcare in this country isn't really set up for the type of patient that the NHS has to deal with, how many private hospital beds are available to people who need admitting due to carer strain ? Or people who develop delerium due to an infection, or people who need ICU care following post operative complications or just need ICU care following surgery? The local private hospital will call an ambulance to transfer to the NHS hospital if this happens, the local private mental health facility regularly sent patients via ambulance to the NHS hospital after over sedating their detox patients, they no longer offer this service but do utilise the NHS district nursing team to apply a dressing should any patient injure themselves. The NHS has to see everyone, always, which means there will sometimes be a wait due to the bed numbers being halved in 30 years and the population increasing in those 30 years by 10 million.

On the bright side we can look forward to 40 'new' hospitals.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/50579557