To argue that this should is not a suitable topic for the Girl Guides

[MovedByFanciesThatAreCurled]

Girlguiding is for girls, aged 10-14. So why then do they feel the need to promote this on their social media?

This week is #AceWeek - a time to raise awareness and understanding of the asexual community. So here’s a shout-out to all of our asexual volunteers and members – thank you for everything you do in Girlguiding.

The reference to ‘members’ is quite clear. What on earth were they thinking in making reference to young girls’ sex lives (or lack of them according to the focus of the Tweet). How, as an organisation, have they strayed so far? I have two boys in the Scouts/Beavers and if this came up on either of their social media pages I would pull them out. Why is it seen to be an acceptable for Girlguiding?!!

[quote PinkyU]@Finknottlesnewt so you must feel the same about heterosexuality and homosexuality then.

Gay parents shouldn’t introduce the idea of heterosexuality and vice versa as it, apparently, makes their child less of a child? Yes, is that right?[/quote]
Children need to know families come in all shapes and sizes.

They need to know some kids have one mum, some kids have two, some kids have one dad, some kids have two, some kids are raised by other carers. And that any of those are normal.

Not difficult.

I agree there is definitely social discrimination. I don’t feel able to articulate that I’m asexual to my work colleagues because I’ve heard the casual way they have dismissed other older, female colleagues who are long-term single and childless. I don’t know whether these other colleagues are asexual or not but regardless I have heard others call them sad, lonely, spinsters, strange, awkward, speculate on their virginity etc and I think lots of these comments stem from the fact they haven’t got partners or had children. There is definitely an unsaid assumption that these women are in some way defective and that their being single is a character flaw. I haven’t felt this social discrimination yet, I think because I am still young enough that people assume my being single is bad luck and something I am actively seeking to change rather than a life choice, but I feel like if I spoke out and said I am asexual then that would change and I would be judged as sad, frigid, weird, boring, a freak etc and I feel like I would be excluded and pushed out from discussions. I am dreading being that age where people realise this is more than bad luck although I don’t know whether I will make it that long, it is miserable being like this as society is not really set up for people who aren’t in or seeking a relationship and as I get older it gets more and more obvious to others that it’s not happening for me and less and less socially acceptable to be single and childless.

I was going to qualify my orientation at the beginning of this post - then I changed my mind because it’s totally irrelevant.

I really don’t care whether anyone is straight, gay, bi, asexual etc. Their private life is their private life. I’ve worked in different environments and occasionally discussions have come up about the attractiveness of a media personality. I’ve never felt any pressure to either go along with, or hide my own preferences. A woman can appreciate the desirability of another woman without being gay, likewise a man about another male.

Who I sleep with or have a sexual relationship with is entirely private. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business unless i choose to reveal details. Ive never felt it appropriate to discuss my sex life.
I do have a wry smile at the accusations made by some of homophobia or transphobia. How does anyone know what your preference is unless you tell them? I worked years ago with a guy who was so camp it was unbelievable but he was happily married with 4 kids so you can never assume anything about people.

Tbh, it’s so ‘trendy’ to be gay/bi atm, I’m guessing a lot of straight teenagers probably feel they’re the outsiders.

I’ve heard the casual way they have dismissed other older, female colleagues who are long-term single and childless

Well, that says more about them than it does you.

I am dreading being that age where people realise this is more than bad luck

I can tell you now that once you get to that age, no-one will give a monkey's. I don't know how old you are but you tend to care less about what other people think about you as you get older - also, your life just becomes fuller and you have less time to think about yourself. No-one but you cares what sexuality you are unless they are trying to sleep with you in which case you can tell them to fuck off.

The d of e pshe guidance is very clear that parents should be children’s main source of relationships and sex education and that only very well trained professionals in education should be undertaking this at schools, that all teaching should be age appropriate and that pshe policies must keep in mind their legal duty to safeguard kids.

Having read through the updated d of e guidance and keeping children safe in education guidance and our local schools policies, it’s glaringly bloody obvious that even very well trained teachers and safeguarding leads struggle to write their policies in line with laws and d of e guidance and to be mindful of safeguarding. So they idea a volunteer at a kids hobby could in any way manage this safely and appropriately is fucking reckless.

[quote KatieAlcock]Children do not know about any kind of sexuality at 2. They know about love and mummies and daddies.
Telling a child that some men love men and some women love women is age appropriate.
Sharing your sexuality on SM where children can see it is not.
Leaders have been doing this (and then telling me it's OK to do), clearly demonstrating that their safeguarding training is not adequate.

twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2/status/1454415343108206597?t=8XmT33PZb7ZHAzjfP6gvIw&s=19[/quote]
This ^^ with bells on

@Enb76

I’ve heard the casual way they have dismissed other older, female colleagues who are long-term single and childless

Well, that says more about them than it does you.

I am dreading being that age where people realise this is more than bad luck

I can tell you now that once you get to that age, no-one will give a monkey's. I don't know how old you are but you tend to care less about what other people think about you as you get older - also, your life just becomes fuller and you have less time to think about yourself. No-one but you cares what sexuality you are unless they are trying to sleep with you in which case you can tell them to fuck off.

Can I ask in what way your life becomes fuller? I feel like my life has become emptier as I’ve got older (I’m in my mid-30s) as my friends have coupled up, got married and had kids. I find increasingly the people in my life understandably have less time for me, whereas when I was younger I had other single friends who wanted to do things like go to the cinema, see bands, go to comedy nights, go on holiday, go to festivals etc with me. Now people seem to do all of these things with their partners and families. The only thing I really have in my life is work and I am lucky I have a fulfilling job which I genuinely enjoy most of the time, although as a downside I work fairly long hours and have a lot of extra work to do outside of my working hours which doesn’t leave a lot of free time for other activities. Outside of work my life is quite empty, it’s been half-term this week so I’ve been off work and I’ve spent most days at home on my own, I have caught up with a few friends for the odd coffee but mostly I have found everybody to be busy with other things. I would love my life to be fuller outside of work but I am not close to any of my family (geographically or emotionally) and my friends have their own lives which don’t really include me day-to-day. I feel like most people’s adult lives are, understandably, not really set up to accommodate their lonely single friends and so my life seems to get emptier as other people are moving towards marriage and children etc and the disconnect and gulf between me and normal people just seems to get wider.

@Lockheart

It's important that girls (and boys) going through puberty and starting to develop sexual attraction or not know that whatever their orientation - gay, straight, bisexual, asexual - they're normal and it's accepted.

This.

Being asexual doesn't disadvantage you professionally, there isn't social or economic discrimination against people who don't have sex for whatever reason.

Not legally perhaps, but socially there is loads of discrimination around people who have no sex drives - whether because they're genuinely asexual or whether they have health issues that stop them wanting to have sex.

The more we make it acceptable for people to be asexual and accepted by society, the better.

If it's okay for children to be aware of heterosexuality - which they definitely are by 10-14 (I know a fair few girls who were already sexually active, if not having PIV intercourse, by 13-14!) - then I don't see why it's an issue for them to also be aware of other sexualities.

A lot of primary schools do basic sex education now. If we exclude learning about other sexualities, we continue to frame heterosexuality as 'normal' and everything else as 'abnormal'.

'Can I ask in what way your life becomes fuller?'

If I were you I would consider having a lodger or a flat/house mate. Being on your own all the time is not good for you but it doesn't have to be a sexual relationship. I haven't had a sexual relationship since my early 30s and I'm now mid-40s. I got a dog. I am also pretty happy with being alone and my good friends who are all married still invite me to stuff and we go for coffee etc... I do have a child. My cousin (unmarried female, childless, permanently single, 40's) fosters children. You do need something to get you outside of your own head and I admit that I was miserable until I discovered that.

Can we please stop using the fact that kids at 13 having sex ( which is abuse btw) as am excuse fir adults overstepping and eroding boundaries.

MolkosTeenageAngst all of what you say points to a need for a greater understanding and acceptance of asexuality and the different circumstances people find themselves in.

Yes I think you're probably right that I need something else in my life. I would love to foster but I have a recent history of mental health difficulties, I’m known to A&E and crisis teams so I don’t think I would be approved (and rightly so, I have family who foster and appreciate that the children are often vulnerable) and I don’t think my support network is strong enough. Plus I couldn’t fit a dog around my work let alone a child. It is something I would like to look into in the future if I manage to hide it overcome my mental health difficulties for long enough that they won’t be a black mark against me.

I have thought about moving to a flat share but I have a lot of social anxiety especially around new people, I find it hard to trust my judgement after I was raped by a man I admittedly had only just met but trusted was safe enough to walk me back to my hotel when I became lost in a power cut abroad. It was an error of judgement on my part and in hindsight very foolish of me to put myself in that position but I don’t really trust myself not to make a mistake like that again so I don’t think I would comfortably be able to live with a stranger and I don’t have any friends looking to move. Maybe it is something I should try and put the feelers out for now.

Anyway, I admit I am digressing from the original point of this thread and this is all largely irrelevant, I think it has just triggered something in me today so I am overthinking where I am in life and why and I suppose it is difficult to read some of the views which have been expressed on here because they echo the things I think about myself but equally it has been good to read that there are some asexual people who are happy with their lives so perhaps there is some hope for my future.

The girl guides lost their way a long time ago. I would never send a girl to girl guides now. Not after seeing who was on their advisory panel, and observing the organisations lackadaisical approach to safeguarding. No thanks.

@Porcupineintherough

Well obviously it would be devastating if young women found out that some people dont have sexual feelings or want sex and that's ok.

It would be devastating if young women found out some people don’t have sexual feelings but have sex anyways and that it’s ok.

@DameMaureen

The resources were written by a group of Girlguiding volunteers, with expert assistance from Brook, the sexual health advisory service and Stonewall, the lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans charity

Says it all .

This ^^

Stonewall were the reason the d of e needed to rewrite their guidance to keep kids safe from stonewall influencing schools. Stonewall’s resources for pshe in schools were found to be failing to be working together safely compliant so d of e had to act to get them away from kids.

Any organisation that takes the lead from stonewall is failing safeguarding.

[quote PinkyU]**@BelleOfTheProvince* so what age, in your professional opinion, is it “safe” for children to have knowledge of sexual orientation?

*and let’s not be silly here, by sexual orientation what we’re discussing is attraction, fancying someone, NOT actual sex or sex acts.[/quote]
This...whenever anyone brings up 'sex' or 'sexual feelings' 'sexuality' etc they seem to assume the discussion is straight into bukkake and reverse cowgirl. Obviously 10-11 year olds shouldn't be having sex. That doesn't need saying. But 12 year olds and younger will be having crushes, first boyfriends and girlfriends, kissing behind the bikesshed etcand have been for at least the last 70 years.

If you're saying no-one outside of parents or teachers (e.g. qualified figures) should ever talk about any sexuality etc then fine. But if you're saying it's OK for a guide leader to chat about her boyfriend or wedding or being pregnant then it's equally OK for her to reply, if asked "No I don't have a boyfriend, i have a girlfriend" or "no I don't have either because I'm asexual." Othereise you're being discriminatory.

Any organisation that takes the lead from stonewall is failing safeguarding

One now fortunately ex member , but who had input in inclusion policies which have not changed since their departure, was externally investigated by verita and found to be incompetent and incapable of understanding safeguarding.

It would be devastating if young women found out some people don’t have sexual feelings but have sex anyways and that it’s ok.

But I think the point is that many (although not all) asexual people do still have sexual feelings. Sexual attraction towards another person and experiencing sexual feelings/ a sex drive/ being horny etc are not the same. Many asexual people do not have a sexual drive and so don’t have sex bit some may have a libido and choose to satisfy that with consensual sex.

That said I don’t think anybody is advocating sharing that level of detail into what being asexual can mean, just as it’s not necessary when discussing other sexualities to go into detail regarding what people’s sex lives may look like. Some straight/ gay etc people will have sex regularly, some will have multiple partners whilst others will be monogamous, some may enjoy various kinks, some may be celibate but that isn’t relevant in an initial conversation about what being straight/ gay etc means.

Being asexual is an orientation. It means you don’t feel physical/ sexual attraction to anybody regardless of their sex/ gender. The way a straight person thinks and feels about people of the same sex is how an asexual person would feel about people of any sex. It’s not about how they feel about sex, it’s just about who they are physically attracted to.

There is no need for sex to be part of a discussion about asexuality, that’s not to say it never could be if it was age-appropriate but equally a conversation about being asexual can really be framed in terms of who you fancy (Eg: nobody) rather than who you would have sex with. Not everyone is seeking to have sex with every person they fancy or feel a physical attraction towards, it’s okay to say ‘I fancy Brad Pitt’ without the implication being you would automatically have sex with him if he walked in the room. Physical attraction can be about more than sex and of course for younger teens they may have ‘crushed’ on others but not be thinking beyond kissing or even just holding hands (and neither should they be pressured to do so). Being asexual just means you don’t have those kind of crushes towards anybody, sex does not have to come into it.

@MolkosTeenageAngst

I'm not single, but when I found myself short of friends after moving I volunteered with a few organisations. I still do that now, have met lots of people that way, many of them are actually single, I think lonely people often turn to volunteering. I also have a sport that takes up a couple of evenings. Tbh there aren't enough hours in the day.

Girl guiding includes older girls and adults too. I'm not sure if it's appropriate but you are wrong about the age group

@MovedByFanciesThatAreCurled

Girlguiding is for girls, aged 10-14. So why then do they feel the need to promote this on their social media?

This week is #AceWeek - a time to raise awareness and understanding of the asexual community. So here’s a shout-out to all of our asexual volunteers and members – thank you for everything you do in Girlguiding.

The reference to ‘members’ is quite clear. What on earth were they thinking in making reference to young girls’ sex lives (or lack of them according to the focus of the Tweet). How, as an organisation, have they strayed so far? I have two boys in the Scouts/Beavers and if this came up on either of their social media pages I would pull them out. Why is it seen to be an acceptable for Girlguiding?!!

www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/inclusion-and-diversity/including-everyone/lgbtplus/sexual-orientation/

but scouts do have it on their page and you do realise there's girls in all scouting organisations

@MolkosTeenageAngst

Sorry I'm reading your replies in reverse order.

Maybe I am biased but I think that the difficulties arising for asexual people from never expressing that what they feel is okay are greater than those that might arise from a non-asexual person temporarily thinking they may identify in that way and I think that ultimately teaching teens it’s okay not to feel sexual attraction to others is only going to help teens who feel like that, regardless of whether it will be a lifelong sexual orientation for them.

That's a very fair point. I'm just not sure what is an appropriate age to start these discussions.
For what it's worth I do feel asexuality is a harder road to travel than other sexualities.
Would a relationship with another asexual person be an option?

Why does Stonewall training include asexuality awareness but not any on women who are same sex attracted?
Nancy Kelly has (effectively) said that lesbians - women who are same sex attracted - who don’t sleep with men are bigoted.

Stonewall is a homophobic and misogynist organisation, and any company/ organisation associating with them should be deeply wary. An organisation such as Girl Guides in particular should be careful - what messages are being sent out to the girls in these groups who are aware that they’re same sex attracted? Surely they become fearful and shameful when they’re told that they should accept ‘lady penis’? Girl Guides should get as far away from Stonewall training as they can.