To argue that this should is not a suitable topic for the Girl Guides

[MovedByFanciesThatAreCurled]

Girlguiding is for girls, aged 10-14. So why then do they feel the need to promote this on their social media?

This week is #AceWeek - a time to raise awareness and understanding of the asexual community. So here’s a shout-out to all of our asexual volunteers and members – thank you for everything you do in Girlguiding.

The reference to ‘members’ is quite clear. What on earth were they thinking in making reference to young girls’ sex lives (or lack of them according to the focus of the Tweet). How, as an organisation, have they strayed so far? I have two boys in the Scouts/Beavers and if this came up on either of their social media pages I would pull them out. Why is it seen to be an acceptable for Girlguiding?!!

Teaching children and teens about asexuality worries me a bit (mainly in the same way gender teaching worries me). It seems to reinforce beliefs that how you feel as a child will be how you feel forever. Children are naturally asexual, it's part of being a child, it doesn't mean they will feel this way forever. But being taught about asexuality means they may feel that this is how things will always be, to never be attracted to anyone and never have a partner. I was one of the kids mentioned in a pp, who faked having crushes in my teenage years, because I just wasn't attracted to anyone - I just took longer to get there, I am very attracted to real life people, but have never felt anything for pop stars, actors etc. But would have been crushed as a child to think I was asexual and this was how things will always be.

It's different to teaching about homosexuality, if children are having feelings for same sex people, it is good for them to know this is normal, but it doesn't affect the kids who don't feel this way, other than to let them know it is normal for other people to have this attraction.

Plus, I don't think people who aren't involved with young children understand how children see the world. There's a lot of talk on Mumsnet from parents who discuss lots of wide ranging issues with their obviously gifted children. Whereas I volunteer with children (up to 11yrs) who struggle with a lot of basic concepts, still believe in fairies and talking animals, who can't debate complex subjects. They aren't children with additional needs either.
We do talk about kids having 2 mums, kids having no mums etc...different family set ups, and how all are fine. But we avoid discussing sexual feelings, as volunteers we don't have the training.

@Enb76

I think it's really regressive. Asexuality is reasonable in an academic discourse but in wider general discussion it should be irrelevant. Someone's sexuality should not be the most interesting thing about them. Children should be given the appropriate, it's ok to love or not love, have sex with or not have sex with whomever you want as long as it is consensual and legal. Consent and legality being the operative words.

I have no desire to have sex with either men or women and haven't for a long time. There's no need for a special bloody label, it's just on the very wide spectrum of completely normal and ordinary. Why would anyone need the constant regressive ordering of things into boxes - why would anyone want to celebrate being in a box? I find it baffling.

I am without religion, I am without a gender identity and I have no interest in sex with anyone but I reject all these bloody labels flying about. It's all so navel gazing.

So do you feel the same way about labelling children as girls and boys? Blondes and brunettes?

Someone saying "I'm asexual" is no different to someone saying "I have a husband". We don't bat an eyelid at the latter so why is everyone getting all worked up about the former?

Guiding has been completely and utterly stonewalled.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/supporting-trans-members/

They believe that everyone should be treated as they gender they identify as. They misrepresent the law in their What the Law Says page, they say that no one should be told if a child or volunteer is actually male when they identify as female.

This is a safeguarding nightmare.

If it makes me a frother to think that an organisation which is supposed to be about centring women and girls puts a feeling in a man's head above those women and girls' safety, privacy and dignity, then I'm very proud to be a frother.

Anyone who doesn't think guiding is ripe for exploitation by sexual predators is hopelessly naive.

I used to love Brownies and Guides, we used to do so many activities and because it was girls only nothing was monopolised by the boys. Which I think is important for young girls grown up, it helps them to learn different aspects of themselves.

Its sad now that the most/only important aspect of a girl's existence seems to be focused around sex and sexualisation from an increasingly young age. That can't be helpful for them.

I can't help feeling this is another way of trying to turn children into little adults. I absolutely agree that asexuality is real and should be understood, but the overwhelming majority of children have no sexual urges before puberty and even during and after many children still don't feel strong sexual desire so I find this rush to label normal human development as odd at best and disturbing if I'm being cynical.

So, you don't understand the difference between a social media post and teaching the subject. That clears up that question then

Oh I definitely do but i think you will be proved wrong on that in the long term in that this may not be being taught “formally” but this ideology is filtering into schools and all child centred organisations at the hands of the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids. There is no reason whatsoever for organisations such as Girl Guides to be trumpeting their stances on sexualities/genders etc, they should be neutral and if they come across any kids struggling with such issues, quietly sign post them back to trained professionals. Genders/sexuality is just one aspect of life, the obsessive focus on them and constant exposure on social media, in friendship groups, schools etc is creating huge issues - see the 4400% rise in mainly autistic girls deciding to transition with the life time of drugs, surgery, lack of sexual function and infertility that involves.

Girl guides/scouts etc have no business focussing on this, they should providing total escape from those worries not peacocking on SM about them.

Now I won’t respond to you again. I’ve been discussing such issues for years and I have yet to see a queer theory proponent ever be willing to discuss in good faith without complete denial of the issues. It’s boring tbh and there’s loads of good posts to read on this issue without getting caught up wrangling with one poster. Again thanks for your replies

DD is heavily involved in girl guiding and wishes we'd signed her up for scouts all those years ago, as GG just isn't a good fit for her.
But she does often comment on the point of view of a teen, that the age groupings in the GG sections just don't work, especially age 10 for guides doesn't really work with 13-14yr olds.

They're just saying if you're asexual then you're welcome. It shouldn't need saying, of course, but unfortunately it often does.

It didn't need saying. The (legitimate) personal lives of leaders are completely irrelevant to guiding. No one cares, one way or another.

I notice our unit has left this well alone!

@SoupDragon

It's classic frothing over something that isn't actually happening.

This

Children are naturally asexual, it's part of being a child, it doesn't mean they will feel this way forever

I agree with this. And anyone with teens know how keen many of them are to label their sexuality and gender identity, even as early as primary school.

They don’t need MORE of this from a girls’ activity group, they need somewhere where they can just be. No one nowadays needs to worry that their child won’t be exposed to the various sexualities and 100 plus genders - it’s everywhere.

They really don’t need to hear about how often or how another adult community feels about sex.

@SusannaRowan

DD is heavily involved in girl guiding and wishes we'd signed her up for scouts all those years ago, as GG just isn't a good fit for her. But she does often comment on the point of view of a teen, that the age groupings in the GG sections just don't work, especially age 10 for guides doesn't really work with 13-14yr olds.

This is the same age groups as scouts. Scouts are 10.5-14. It works really well as the 13/14 year olds have more developed skills so can help the 10/11 year olds to set up a fire, can lead them in games around the woods, help them read a map etc.

Do you realise how offensive that statement is? Or do you just not care?

Well it suppose if you’re wilfully reading it it bad faith and interpreting it mean that I am saying asexual people are generally perverts then yes you could find it offensive and I suspect that is what you’re doing which is so tedious and predictable I can’t even be bothered to explain.

However I will say if you don’t think that predatory people will use anything to gain access to their victim of choice then you need to wake up.

@SusannaRowan

Teaching children and teens about asexuality worries me a bit (mainly in the same way gender teaching worries me). It seems to reinforce beliefs that how you feel as a child will be how you feel forever. Children are naturally asexual, it's part of being a child, it doesn't mean they will feel this way forever. But being taught about asexuality means they may feel that this is how things will always be, to never be attracted to anyone and never have a partner. I was one of the kids mentioned in a pp, who faked having crushes in my teenage years, because I just wasn't attracted to anyone - I just took longer to get there, I am very attracted to real life people, but have never felt anything for pop stars, actors etc. But would have been crushed as a child to think I was asexual and this was how things will always be.

It's different to teaching about homosexuality, if children are having feelings for same sex people, it is good for them to know this is normal, but it doesn't affect the kids who don't feel this way, other than to let them know it is normal for other people to have this attraction.

Plus, I don't think people who aren't involved with young children understand how children see the world. There's a lot of talk on Mumsnet from parents who discuss lots of wide ranging issues with their obviously gifted children. Whereas I volunteer with children (up to 11yrs) who struggle with a lot of basic concepts, still believe in fairies and talking animals, who can't debate complex subjects. They aren't children with additional needs either.
We do talk about kids having 2 mums, kids having no mums etc...different family set ups, and how all are fine. But we avoid discussing sexual feelings, as volunteers we don't have the training.

But what about the people who are genuinely asexual? For some it will always be that way and to teach everybody that normal is to feel sexual attraction to others (whether that be towards the same or opposite sex, both or something inbetween) means that those who are still asexual in their teens and beyond will always feel othered and abnormal. At what point would you say it is okay to teach asexual people that they’re not abnormal and that they don’t need to feel ‘crushed’ that they’re not just taking longer to get there, that actually this is their orientation?

It’s something I didn’t realise until my thirties and honestly I live a miserable life because of it. I have so many mental health issues and traumas because of the things I put myself through trying to fit in, no self esteem, poor body image etc and I find it so hard to feel like I fit in and connect with people after so long thinking I was broken and missing an integral part to being human.

Surely what we should be teaching teens is that actually you don’t need to feel ‘crushed’ if you are asexual and that actually it’s a legitimate orientation. That way those who are genuinely asexual are being supported and those who will just take longer to discover their orientation aren’t losing anything because the focus is not on making it a bad thing people need to feel sadness or shame over, which is how your post makes it sound? That it would be awful for a non-asexual teen to think for one moment they are asexual because it is such an awful and crushing orientation to hold into adulthood?

Damn right, a 10-year-old should be asexual. If you think otherwise, you need your hard drive checking.

@EishetChayil

Damn right, a 10-year-old should be asexual. If you think otherwise, you need your hard drive checking.

10 year olds should not be engaging in any sexual or sexualised activity. It's not the same as being asexual.

Otoh, while I agree with teaching "some people aren't attracted to anyone", I feel "some people (asexual ones) can have sex without sexual attraction" is definitely on dodgy ground.

No one should be taught that it is normal to have sex without sexual attraction. It really isn't.

@DdraigGoch

They're just saying if you're asexual then you're welcome. It shouldn't need saying, of course, but unfortunately it often does.

It didn't need saying. The (legitimate) personal lives of leaders are completely irrelevant to guiding. No one cares, one way or another.

Clearly they do care, or this thread wouldn't be as heated as it is.

It's not about the leaders, either. Guiding covers teenagers upto 18 years of age, who will be MORE than aware of their sexuality.

Well it suppose if you’re wilfully reading it it bad faith...

Yeah, an earlier comment of mine was twisted and read in bad faith too.

All I was suggesting was that girls of that age might well confuse asexuality with simply not being sexually interested yet, or somewhat afraid of the way sex is presented to them (with girls as the objects of male desire) - but this got twisted into something else. I mean how does one differentiate between a 9YO girl thinking sex is ewwwwww and an adult's realisation that sex isn't for them?

@EishetChayil

Damn right, a 10-year-old should be asexual. If you think otherwise, you need your hard drive checking.

Many children go through puberty before the age of 10 and will develop sexual attractions along with that. They're too young to be acting on it and should not be engaging in any sexual activity with anyone, but they're not too young to have a sexual orientation, which can be hardwired from birth.

@EishetChayil

Damn right, a 10-year-old should be asexual. If you think otherwise, you need your hard drive checking.

Are you saying no 10 year old has had a crush or said they fancied a pop star?

I feel like this needs to be reiterated but

SEXUALITY AND SEXUAL ACTIVITY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

'Someone saying "I'm asexual" is no different to someone saying "I have a husband". We don't bat an eyelid at the latter so why is everyone getting all worked up about the former?'

Asexuality as far as I can tell from the description here, is a bit of word salad and more about identity politics than sexual politics. If someone were truly asexual they wouldn't be having sex - what would be the point? Having sex with someone you're not sexually attracted to is as old as the bloody hills it certainly doesn't need a label. Boy/girl are biologically verifiable facts they are not a feeling in someone's head, having a husband or not is also either true or not true. Asexuality is an identity that someone has put onto a facet of ordinary to make it less ordinary.

@NoSquirrels

10-year-olds really are not on Twitter.

They’re on TikTok if they’re anywhere.

If you can find me an official GG TikTok aimed at its young Brownies & Guides about asexuality - or any sexuality - then you’d have an argument I’d listen to.

I repeat - I have issues with their stance on gender, and the safeguarding implications there.

But this is not that. It’s a false equivalence.

I'm not sure that it is a false equivalence.

This seems driven by identity politics. Young people are being encouraged to 'identify' as particular genders or sexualities.

Also you do all realise that Scouts have a while Pride month?? They have posts on Twitter about sexual orientation, stories about leaders coming out etc etc? They have all sorts of pride merch and even a pride badge?
Now I have been involved in scouts for 6 years. I’ve never come across anyone in our group discussing sexual orientation with the young people. I’m sure if a child asked about 2 dad families they would be told that every family is different but it only in an age appropriate way.
I’m sure guides is the same. The people on the ground actually running the meetings are not going to be starting every meeting with 10 years with a vote on what gender people are attracted to.

I’m a brownie leader and no we are not taught or told to discuss this with girls at all

We do camping, crafts, traditional songs, team building, seasonal activities, a lot of STEM/environmental activities are being pushed by girlguiding HQ at the moment

It’s just a social media post, it’s aimed more at parents and volunteers it doesn’t mean that all the sessions for guiding this week around the country are teaching 4+ year olds about asexually. Girlguiding does push to be inclusive and although there is a lot of controversies with self-identified girls joining as is talked about a lot on here, I’ve never in my days in guiding actually come across anyone who has had this issue in their unit anywhere so it’s not some huge widespread problem in my opinion. I also know some fantastic safeguarding officers who work to educate leaders tirelessly and know that guiding has made a huge difference to a lot of girls through its inclusiveness. Like scouts, we welcome girls to us with any differing abilities, ASD, medical issues, developmental delays etc. and everyone is treated equally. It can be life changing for some girls.

Additionally, although scouting seems hailed as ‘better’ on here (because it’s more masculine maybe, weird that) it’s similarly inclusive (it’s a fab organization) and there’s nothing to say a trans girl would not be treated like a ‘usual’ female scouter especially on camp. Scouts also celebrate pride and have had online events recently ‘exploring LGBTQ+ beliefs’ seminar and ‘unite diverse communities - scouting for all’ - these are aimed at leaders and young people and I know they exist because my friend, a gay female Cubs leader, joined in on them - and no, not with her Cubs! It was older teens and adult volunteers.

Girlguiding also is not just for young girls. There are thriving Rangers (14+) and Inspire (18-30) divisions for women. As well as Young Leaders, student leaders and adult leaders. Social media is more aimed at these older members and volunteers as I said before, so no, Girlguiding is not celebrating Asexuality as some sort of badge to earn or getting 5 year olds to make posters saying they support it! I work with 16-19 year olds as my job and to say discussing asexuality etc is wrong with them means you’re not on the same planet - their worlds and opinions on sexuality and gender are generally extremely different to us oldies (I’m 30 lol). It’s just a totally different mindset. I don’t get why Girlguiding recognizing something that might be very important to some of its you g adult members is so bad?

My GP practice decorates for pride and tweets / facebooks about trans awareness, LGBT health etc. doesn’t mean that my child is preached at about it when they go for a check up!

@BeyondShrinks

Otoh, while I agree with teaching "some people aren't attracted to anyone", I feel "some people (asexual ones) can have sex without sexual attraction" is definitely on dodgy ground.

No one should be taught that it is normal to have sex without sexual attraction. It really isn't.

But some people love their partners and enjoy sex with them but just aren't sexually attracted to them.