"I'm Irish American"

[MacMahon]

I've noticed that to many Americans their Irish, Scots, Italian etc. roots are a big part of their current identity. As a nation of immigrants in a New World I can see why this link to earlier generations is interesting and important.

But it's also something I find confusing.

I live in Yorkshire. I'm English. I have Irish ancestors on both side (great grandparents and great x2 grandparents). If I was in America this would quite possibly be a big deal. I'd be an Irish American and identify with the struggles and persecution that my people suffered at the hands of the English. But I wasn't born in America, I was born in Leeds, and my Irish ancestry play zero role in my identity.

I'm on an ancestry group and Americans are getting that DNA test done and finding out that, contrary to family lore that they are Cherokee or Mexican or Italian Americans, they're actually pretty much 'just' 100% British.

It makes me wonder how authentic this celebrating or identifying with their Irish/First Nations/Italian roots is, and how much is just (mistaken) tribalism and division.

As an American, what this thread makes me want to say is...

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general. Local identity supercedes history (see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that).

In USA, almost all of us can say we "came" from somewhere else. You support the sport team where you live now, not where you lived when you were 10yo or your parents' country. You're expected to see change and new things as opportunity, not disruption. The reward for highlighting your differentness is huge. There is great celebration of our melting pot heritage. There's a long tradition of True American = People who choose to be American. Who embrace our values. So being different is still profoundly American, for the most part.

You go to a 4th of July parade in a small military town where the stone-faced Marine marching band is followed by LBGTQ circus group followed by the Polish-American community centre float. We're all American.

I always say that Trumpism is a profoundly anti-American philosophy. Maybe the rise of populism means that American communities are becoming less fluid in their membership, to explain that growing dislike of 'other'.

We were in DC for a while, and my husband needed someone to play a harp. The first person he tried was Jewish and not available because it was an event on the sabbath.
He suggested the owner of an Irish pub who might know a harper. He did. A second cousin of my husband's sister in law. There is often a connection!

@MacMahon

It’s not about roots, it’s about ‘ooh look at me, my ancestors come from the land of leprechauns and river dance’.

Yes, in an almost exclusionary or aggressive way.

I’ve always had a little chuckle at the “my ancestors are Irish!” thing! As scientists have recently pinpointed certain areas where Vikings settled, we’re sure to have “my ancestors were Vikings!” next.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58996186

That happens here though, I've been told I obviously supported the IRA as an adult because I have an Irish name. And plenty have no idea about loyalist involvement.

Same in the UK. Many British people think the troubles were fought between the British Army and the IRA. Completely ignoring the fact that loyalist paramilitaries caused as much death and destruction as the IRA did. Both sides had terrorist organisations that murdered and maimed people, and the majority of people in both communities did not support this. Yet it was ok to label the Irish as terrorists.

see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that

Isn't that called "loyalty"?

There's a big crossover between Ireland and Scotland in terms of dna, especially between Northern Ireland and the south part of Scotland. If you know your history, you'll understand why.

Much of my paternal ancestry is in the Scottish Borders but the ethnicity estimate shows a circle covering all the Borders and a Northumberland too. Because of the obvious mixing of people either side of the border.

About the "99 euros to tell me I was Irish when.I knew that already" - I see the point but there is so, so much more value you could get from that DNA data should you choose to do so.

I noticed this when living in US, in Boston

I found it interesting as different to Aus and U.K.

To be fair to Joe Biden, when he was elected, the town of Ballina where his great great great grandma was from also went nuts, with American flags up, big celebrations, etc so it wasn't an entirely one way thing!

I'm sure a lot of people were rolling their eyes but there were plenty of Irish people (including my own parents who are from elsewhere in Ireland) who were going on about Biden 'being Irish'!

There have been points in US history where immigration source did really matter. It strongly influenced where you lived and how you were perceived in society. My own grandmother was born here, but the government funded school she attended was taught in polish. Groups were still very separate.

We have a history where the immigration status of your parents could exclude you from employment or housing. People don’t really forget the sting of signs in windows saying “no Irish need apply”.

Taking pride in your immigration status is partly a response to that.

I do think the practice is mostly a holdover at this point, it’s just a habit people haven’t quite shaken. The discrimination doesn’t really exist anymore, but the pride part is still there.

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general. Local identity supercedes history (see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that).

Does that happen? There are an awful lot of Man U fans who’ve never lived anywhere near Manchester. Same for all the big teams.

No. I mean his dna was presented to him as being 99% from the uk and ireland. Geez!

The post said 4% Swedish and 96% UK.

Ireland is a separate country.

@lljkk

As an American, what this thread makes me want to say is...

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general. Local identity supercedes history (see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that).

In USA, almost all of us can say we "came" from somewhere else. You support the sport team where you live now, not where you lived when you were 10yo or your parents' country. You're expected to see change and new things as opportunity, not disruption. The reward for highlighting your differentness is huge. There is great celebration of our melting pot heritage. There's a long tradition of True American = People who choose to be American. Who embrace our values. So being different is still profoundly American, for the most part.

You go to a 4th of July parade in a small military town where the stone-faced Marine marching band is followed by LBGTQ circus group followed by the Polish-American community centre float. We're all American.

I always say that Trumpism is a profoundly anti-American philosophy. Maybe the rise of populism means that American communities are becoming less fluid in their membership, to explain that growing dislike of 'other'.

That’s happening more in Ireland as it becomes more multicultural. St Patrick’s Day parades (traditionally in my childhood a matter of shivering, blue-legged under-nine hurlers walking behind a lorry with a man in a fake beard and mitre waving) have been massively energised by having Nigerian theatre companies, Brazilian samba bands etc. Obviously there is racism in Ireland and the New Irish aren’t being seamlessly integrated by any means, but I was very happy the first time I heard a Fela Kuti track blasted over speakers off a St Patrick’s Day float.

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general.

Whereabouts do you live?

Does this happen in Australia too?

I’m an outlier here. I have US/Canadian ‘ancestry’ (although my ancestors originally travelled over there from Ireland). I have a direct ancestor who was killed at the Battle of Gettysburg. I find that family heritage very interesting. So as much as an American might want to tell me about their Irish heritage, I’ll want to tell them about my North American ‘heritage’

I don’t think that’s true. In America it seems a whole ‘thing’ to do your citizenship, tell people you are American... in the U.K. not so.

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general. Local identity supercedes history (see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that)

I find this hard to agree with - have you ever been to a British city? I lived in London for years and it was hugely diverse and massively embraced other cultures.

I feel the same about "Italian American"

"I'm Italian" because my gggg grandparent was Italian and I have their surname.

Nope. You're American.

There's a long tradition of True American = People who choose to be American. Who embrace our values. So being different is still profoundly American, for the most part.

True American is people choosing to be American? Maybe in an ideal world but there are an awful lot of people who don’t act like that is the case. Of course those people aren’t America as a whole, but I’m sure there are plenty of immigrants across America who’d have an opinion on this idea of America as you’ve described.
And to be clear, I’m not suggesting the UK is any better in this regard.

Kingsley Everyone I know who has done these tests has wanted to know their distant ancestry. In fact had already gone as far as the historical records could tell them. In every case they were entirely unaware of the commercial value of their DNA and certainly didn’t tick the box to have it disposed of.

And distant ancestry is exactly where it becomes DNA astrology. You only have to go back 1000 years for every one of us to share a common ancestor.

Where people do not have historical records is exactly where this DNA astrology becomes dangerous in terms of people’s sense of identity. African Asians for instance being told all their ancestry is African and none of it in Asia for instance.

At the end of the day these are commercial businesses and they make money from holding DNA (and it’s potential future value whatever they are saying at the moment). The only place you should be giving your DNA to is genuine research projects (like Genome U.K.) that you have thoroughly researched to understand the implications.

For some people how they identify is more than where they were born/live. My Mum and Dad are both Irish (Dad born there, Mum not but was an Irish passport holder through Irish born parents). I was born here and have always described myself as half Irish. Being raised in an Irish house as it were, I’ve never really connected with the English side, and post Brexit I feel even less connected. That’s not to say that I don’t want to live here; I can’t imagine living anywhere else, but my identity is more Irish than English I guess. I think there’s a lot to be said for cultural identity and the cultural background you have been raised in which is passed down. I’ve always found it amusing that my Indian friends are never questioned when they describe themselves as Indian (due to India born parents), but if I said I was outright Irish, I’d be called a plastic paddy. Due to my heritage I am an automatic Irish citizen too.

It was a gal from Manchester (ish, Oop North I guess) who first told me about Tall Poppy Syndrome. As an American, this was foreign concept indeed. Is anyone going to say it isn't repeat English habit to build up heros on pedestal and then knock them down hard? Witness Prince Harry.

I live now in a small town in rural East Anglia. I know a lot about local pressure to conform.

The 'conformity in public' but "many private eccentrities" cultural thing with English I believe dates back to QE-I, who formed a policy of weak persecution of Catholics as long as they kept every aspect of their true religion private.

Because their ancestors fled their homes and everything they knew. To escape poverty, persecution and famine. To make a better life for themselves and their descendants. In a place that was often lawless and dangerous. They shaped a new country, a now very powerful one. They are rightly proud. Irish. Italian. Jewish. Persian. Afgani. They didn’t assimilate and disappear. They kept their identity whilst being proudly American. Good.

This is a great alternative perspective. For the first part I was thinking, "so did my relatives" but then you describe how differently those who moved to America rather than England behaved. Mine, in Manchester were discriminated against and suffered. Mine had to assimilate and drop their heritage in a way the Americans didn't.

I have sympathy with people who identify as Irish American. Their ancestors often knew incredible hardship and it wasn't that long ago. Their religion, family culture and celebration of holidays will still be heavily impacted by the way they were raised. Older people will remember their fully Irish ancestors and their Irish names, which they will probably have as second names.

These are the Irish Americans who are, or are related to, active Catholics called Brigit who still know how to make Irish dishes and have sentence constructions mirroring the Gaelic syntax. They have cousins they've met occasionally in Ireland and they have faded pictures of their great grandmother standing outside a cottage, or in front of a boat. And they are part of her, they remember her songs and heard her talk, probably even had an Irish twang themselves at the start of their lives as a result of her influence.

To write them off as novelty seekers is to overlook the cultural identity that they do have. No they're not Irish but their legacy is partly Irish in a way that you can't laugh off.

I'm irish living in ireland and connected to my heritage in the language dance and music. I genuinely have no issue with people speaking of their Irish heritage. For such a small country, we are spread all over the world due to historical reasons and current economic reasons forcing our young to emigrate.

I do have an issue with people who use their "irishness" as an excuse for poor behaviour, "oh he likes to fight, the Irish in him" "she loves a drink, sure she is Irish!".

It absolutely annoys the shit out of me that we are the butt of a xenophobic joke, that gets excused because the person who said it can claim their great uncle 7 times removed was from Mayo.

Even Joe Biden meeting the pope recently, said something like "I bet you have never met an irishman who doesn't drink, but I'm one of them ".

PP is right that it feels like it’s bordering on cultural appropriation - especially the St Patrick’s Day celebrations. We are all a hodge-podge and how far back do we go before we can all say, “I’m X therefore I can do A, B, C”.