"I'm Irish American"

[MacMahon]

I've noticed that to many Americans their Irish, Scots, Italian etc. roots are a big part of their current identity. As a nation of immigrants in a New World I can see why this link to earlier generations is interesting and important.

But it's also something I find confusing.

I live in Yorkshire. I'm English. I have Irish ancestors on both side (great grandparents and great x2 grandparents). If I was in America this would quite possibly be a big deal. I'd be an Irish American and identify with the struggles and persecution that my people suffered at the hands of the English. But I wasn't born in America, I was born in Leeds, and my Irish ancestry play zero role in my identity.

I'm on an ancestry group and Americans are getting that DNA test done and finding out that, contrary to family lore that they are Cherokee or Mexican or Italian Americans, they're actually pretty much 'just' 100% British.

It makes me wonder how authentic this celebrating or identifying with their Irish/First Nations/Italian roots is, and how much is just (mistaken) tribalism and division.

@JacquelineCarlyle

I'm Irish and lived in Boston for years and don't recognise the Irish American community you describe at all *@blubberyboo*?

I don’t recognise it either

It’s not gauche like that ime.

As much as we don’t get the same in Aus I didn’t find it as off as above in pp

For people laughing at 'scotch Americans' it's your own ignorance showing. Scots-Irish and Scotch-Irish are the dominant terms used in the US, because most of our Scottish immigrants were Ulster Scots. I know Scotch sounds weird to you but it's an old American glitch.

About the migration: digitalheritage.org/2011/12/the-migration-of-the-scotch-irish-from-ulster-to-western-north-carolina/

You can still see that heritage very vividly in Appalachia, especially in the music.

@Emilyontmoor

But who in America is comfortable saying ‘I’m iranian’ Anyone who has an iota of comprehension of the amazing Persian culture that has persisted in Iran over 2000 years? The culture that Rome could not conquer and Arab conquerors could not erase? I find it hard to believe that any Iranian is not proud of their heritage, certainly none that I have met.

Not when you are called a hostage taker or amputator of limbs, or an Arab 🙄. Try living through the revolution as a child in school abroad. It makes you suspicious.

Most of the food does not exist here, such as Pasta with Chicken, Spaghetti with Meatballs or Garlic Bread (which I love btw) but makes most Italians shudder with the thought of eating all that garlic or the biggest no-no pasta with chicken!!

There is a very logical explanation for that,
Most Italian immigrants are originally from extremely poor parts of Italy, When they came to New York and got established they were able to afford meat so they started putting it on everything as sign of wealth.

And food does evolve. We didn’t eat huge amount of meat in Britain’s way back. Now it’s a staple.

There are more German Americans than Irish Americans in the USA, but you don’t hear anyone saying ‘I’m German American’. I wonder why?

[quote SusannaRowan]This sounds interesting! Can you give us an example of something maintained by first-generation immigrants that has died out over here?

Language.

www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english[/quote]
That's such an interesting article!

Sneering at Americans descended from refugees and exiles, people fleeing famine and poverty and oppression, because they choose to hang onto those diaspora cultural connections -- I mean really?

Nobody's sneering though, @dreamingbohemian. But you have to admit it's picking and choosing. We have 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 gg grandparents and so on. If your gg grandmother was from Ireland, then yes, you have a link to Ireland. But 15/16 gg grandparents are from other parts of the world, why are you "Irish" rather than English or Russian or Swedish or Czech?

It's picking and choosing - Biden has picked being "Irish American" because he thinks it sounds cooler and more attractive than being French American or Czech American.

@Emilyontmoor

But who in America is comfortable saying ‘I’m iranian’ Anyone who has an iota of comprehension of the amazing Persian culture that has persisted in Iran over 2000 years? The culture that Rome could not conquer and Arab conquerors could not erase? I find it hard to believe that any Iranian is not proud of their heritage, certainly none that I have met.

Don’t be disingenuous, that poster was clearly not saying that Iranians shouldn’t be proud of being Iranian, but that due to prejudice in America, they may not want to describe themselves as that. And was basing that on her friend who was more Iranian than Irish, but described herself as Irish American.

Argue against the point that they were actually making.

@lljkk

As an American, what this thread makes me want to say is...

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general. Local identity supercedes history (see how people typically choose a footie team to support near where they grew up, and never change that).

In USA, almost all of us can say we "came" from somewhere else. You support the sport team where you live now, not where you lived when you were 10yo or your parents' country. You're expected to see change and new things as opportunity, not disruption. The reward for highlighting your differentness is huge. There is great celebration of our melting pot heritage. There's a long tradition of True American = People who choose to be American. Who embrace our values. So being different is still profoundly American, for the most part.

You go to a 4th of July parade in a small military town where the stone-faced Marine marching band is followed by LBGTQ circus group followed by the Polish-American community centre float. We're all American.

I always say that Trumpism is a profoundly anti-American philosophy. Maybe the rise of populism means that American communities are becoming less fluid in their membership, to explain that growing dislike of 'other'.

This is true. I felt that the respectable thing to do was to iron out / deny any differences and because of the way my mother had raised me I felt I had to conform with that. I was unusual that I lost my lovely Irish accent after 13 or 14 years in the UK, came back here with a hybrid accent that confuses everybody.

@shouldistop

I'm scottish. I've been to the states 3 times. Every time I've been I had various Americans telling me they were 'scotch' too

My mother talked about 'speaking Scotch' It's old fashioned terminology.

I'm not sneering but genuinely confused why a friend with one set of Irish great grandparents, so 2 people out of 8, 3 generations ago considers herself Irish. She was really angry when she tried to apply for an Irish passport (her ex boyfriend is British and pre Brexit she thought she'd follow him back over) and found she wasn't eligible.

I don't think it's sneering either. I think if you're co-opted in to somebody else's narrative you are going to have (and should be allowed to have a reaction to that). I do, being 25% Scottish and having forgotten about that for a minute, it is certainly a different way of viewing things.

The story of how the Irish worked together to be their own customers and vendors and keep their money (and so gradually gain some power) is a fascinating one and I think we're all aware of that although I'm definitely guilty of having forgotten the finer details.

[quote bonzo77]**@dreamingbohemian* and @SussannaRyan* I speak as a descendant of refugees. They came to England best part of 200 years ago. I think Failing to seek to understand is one of the routes of everything that’s wrong in the world.[/quote]
I agree @bonzo77

My grandparents and great-grandparents emigrated to the US. On my mother's side, they came from Poland. The family that didn't emigrate were almost all killed during the Second World War.

Polish immigrants to the US in the 20th century were fleeing war, persecution and dire poverty, when they arrived they were discriminated against and created strong local communities to survive. But sure, go ahead and tell Polish-Americans they're being silly to want to maintain that heritage and history.

There are more German Americans than Irish Americans in the USA, but you don’t hear anyone saying ‘I’m German American’. I wonder why? I have certainly heard it from American friends, along with having learnt the language even though the German ancestors were in the nineteenth century.

I even visited a town in California that was entirely German in culture, including speaking in German. It is far from the only one.

SickAndTiredAgain - family actually!

The most in-depth and educated discussion I had with someone about Persian art, culture, literature and history was with a German colleague who misled off with ‘ahhhh, Ariyans...’ dumbest had to be ‘do you have an oil well?’ 🙄

@IsThePopeCatholic

There are more German Americans than Irish Americans in the USA, but you don’t hear anyone saying ‘I’m German American’. I wonder why?

Because of the world wars obviously

But if you go to the Midwest the German influence is everywhere, from foods to place names.

I have noticed that Americans do seem to have a lot of love for Irish roots. And even those who don't have any Irish heritage seem to celebrate St Patrick's day. Like some sort of romantic fantasy. Quite bizarre IMO.

@Emilyontmoor

Kingsley Everyone I know who has done these tests has wanted to know their distant ancestry. In fact had already gone as far as the historical records could tell them. In every case they were entirely unaware of the commercial value of their DNA and certainly didn’t tick the box to have it disposed of.

And distant ancestry is exactly where it becomes DNA astrology. You only have to go back 1000 years for every one of us to share a common ancestor.

Where people do not have historical records is exactly where this DNA astrology becomes dangerous in terms of people’s sense of identity. African Asians for instance being told all their ancestry is African and none of it in Asia for instance.

At the end of the day these are commercial businesses and they make money from holding DNA (and it’s potential future value whatever they are saying at the moment). The only place you should be giving your DNA to is genuine research projects (like Genome U.K.) that you have thoroughly researched to understand the implications.

Again... wrong.

Or at least shows a basic misunderstanding of how genealogical DNA works. Once you get back five or six generations it's entirely possible that due to inheritance not being exactly 25% from each grandparent, you get to a stage where you are most definitely related to your 7 times great grandparent, but have none of their DNA. So if you are looking for DNA to tell you that you are related to Robert the Bruce or Elizabeth I , you'll be disappointed.

BUT, if you are a man and have taken a Y-DNA test that is a different matter. The Y chromosome is handed down from father to son through the generations, and remains largely unchanged. Men who have their Y-DNA tested through Ancestry or other sites can be very successful indeed in tracing their paternal line back for hundreds of years. Two men who have a match on the Y chromosome will have a common male ancestor - the trick is finding out who. This technique of identifying haplogroups using DNA was what helped to confirm that the bones found in Leicester were indeed Richard III, who died in 1485.

Ancestry does retain your DNA for exactly the reasons of cousin matching I have explained. That is the "commercial value". They do not sell it.

True, also I wonder if the pensylvanian dutch towns might form an impression of german american (not sure, I wouldn't know, I'm guessing). The image might be of an insular people without ambition to get out there and scramble to the top. They're not materialistic, not an ideal customer base...

Irish americans are perceived to be socially confident, ambitious, in the thick of everything.

These are my perceptions only, totally open to being educated here.

I think I have a claim to being a genuinely Irish American!

I was born in the States, to Irish parents who were there with work, stayed for a little under two years before moving back to (the North of) Ireland! My accent is N Irish, my parents were Irish and I have an Irish passport. But I'm technically a US citizen - once a citizen always a citizen and they can even charge you taxes. You are always a citizen if you were born there.

Although, after all that, I ended up living in England and have been here so long, who knows what the hell I am anymore

@KingsleyShacklebolt

Sneering at Americans descended from refugees and exiles, people fleeing famine and poverty and oppression, because they choose to hang onto those diaspora cultural connections -- I mean really?

Nobody's sneering though, @dreamingbohemian. But you have to admit it's picking and choosing. We have 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 gg grandparents and so on. If your gg grandmother was from Ireland, then yes, you have a link to Ireland. But 15/16 gg grandparents are from other parts of the world, why are you "Irish" rather than English or Russian or Swedish or Czech?

It's picking and choosing - Biden has picked being "Irish American" because he thinks it sounds cooler and more attractive than being French American or Czech American.

I agree. Biden talks about being Irish because he has a few Irish great grandparents and it’s appealing to voters. Obama’s Kenyan father was mainly brought up by people criticising him and making implications about his lack of American-ness.

Not when you are called a hostage taker or amputator of limbs, or an Arab 🙄. Try living through the revolution as a child in school abroad. It makes you suspicious. That is ignorant schoolground prejudice though and certainly not confined to Iranian identity. I suppose there are two issues, the identity you use to avoid prejudice and the identity you embrace as enriching to your life.

It is actually a bigger issue in America than even here as there is a much lower level of awareness of the rest of the world than even here. I have never been somewhere where people are proud to admit they don’t have a passport or have never travelled outside America, and I lived in San Francisco. I quickly tired of trying to claim my actual identity and just accepted I was Australian and that there was little real essential difference between being Australian and British.

I haven't read the full thread but surely the being Irish/Scots/Italian American (not so different in physical appearance) or African American or Latin American is the antidote to being a WASP? (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant)

even visited a town in California that was entirely German in culture, including speaking in German. It is far from the only one.
I believe German or one of its dialect is spoken in some parts of Pensilvania and not just by the Amish.