"I'm Irish American"

[MacMahon]

I've noticed that to many Americans their Irish, Scots, Italian etc. roots are a big part of their current identity. As a nation of immigrants in a New World I can see why this link to earlier generations is interesting and important.

But it's also something I find confusing.

I live in Yorkshire. I'm English. I have Irish ancestors on both side (great grandparents and great x2 grandparents). If I was in America this would quite possibly be a big deal. I'd be an Irish American and identify with the struggles and persecution that my people suffered at the hands of the English. But I wasn't born in America, I was born in Leeds, and my Irish ancestry play zero role in my identity.

I'm on an ancestry group and Americans are getting that DNA test done and finding out that, contrary to family lore that they are Cherokee or Mexican or Italian Americans, they're actually pretty much 'just' 100% British.

It makes me wonder how authentic this celebrating or identifying with their Irish/First Nations/Italian roots is, and how much is just (mistaken) tribalism and division.

There are different reasons why you might emphasize one of your ethnicities over others

Many Americans don't know their full heritage. Of 8 great-grandparents they might only know 4 or 5, so if 3 of those are Irish, that will dominate

People grow up in split families. I grew up in my mother's family so identify more with my Polish roots, growing up hearing Polish and eating Polish foods, going to Polish church etc.

People might feel more attached to stronger communities, the Irish-American community is huge and popular, the Czech-Americans not so much. Identity is not purely mathematical, it's also emotional.

But personally I don't know many people with 8 or 16 different nationalities that they are definitely aware of. Most people I know have 1-4 nationalities and they identify with the strongest family influence.

I only know my background because I did the family tree
One GG parent is Irish, one GGGp is black (from Barbados), one GGGp is from Scotland

I describe myself as white British 🤷🏽‍♀️ because unless I'm going with the one drop thing, I'm not mixed race

As a Scot who lived in the USA for two years I can agree with a few observations! It was amazing the amount of 'Scotch' people I came across, who were born in the States and had actually never set foot outside it never mind visiting their 'homeland'!
And I remember reading about some parade (can't remember it it was Boston or somewhere) where the 'Scots' parade around in their tartan and are hugely proud of their 'clan' family name etc. It's all a bit cringey.
I've never met a real Scot who gives a toss about clans, most probably couldn't tell you what one they would have belonged to or care to research it. It's just not something that's important in everyday life.
I think its the romanticised version of Scotland they love, the hill and Glens, the Lochs, whisky, tartan, bagpipes, haggis. When the only time we actually care about any of those things is probably Hogmanay! It just doesn't represent Scotland in the modern world. I think these people actually feel more Scottish than someone like me who was born and bred here!
I used to get asked if I "knew so and so", as they had a friend or family member from Scotland, as if we all know each other and Scotland is so small that we are all on first name terms!
I find it all quite amusing, as I'm sure the Irish do too.

@RVN123 The high point of Scottish migration to the US was the 1700s, when I assume clan affiliation was more relevant? These then get passed down through the generations, so people feel sentimental about them.

You have every right to find it cringy but there are actual historical reasons, it's not just Americans being dumb.

I used to get asked if I "knew so and so", as they had a friend or family member from Scotland, as if we all know each other and Scotland is so small that we are all on first name terms!

We Irish get asked that a lot too but it always hugely amuses me that although we take the piss about that from Americans I am yet to have ever met an Irish person where we didn’t know someone in common as the conversation progresses. Alright slight exaggeration but it is really common to know a friend or relative of a person you know or have just literally met from Ireland. It really is that small.

A relative in the states (one Scottish grandparent) proudly showed off her (very large) clan emblem and motto tattoo.

It is massive - a beautiful Spanish looking woman with a rather odd motto. So not a clan badge and definitely not the clan motto. But she was adamant that the tat of a lovely dark skinned woman with long flowing black hair in a red spotty dress (looks like a flamenco dress to me), and the phrase (I forget what it was but was along the love of ‘love love laugh’) was genuine. Absolutely authentic. Oh yes.

I was not allowed to say anything! Dagnabbit! It’s pretty but... nah.

Kingsley

I can assure you that it is not wrong to state that the market value of Ancestry and other companies in that market sector is based on their holding of large amounts of DNA, and not the other activities which markets would value as ancillary. Almost all of that DNA is given up by people unaware of it’s value and the implications. Whatever privacy agreements they might make now they are carefully worded to protect their current and future market valuation. That DNA will have commercial value. I don’t know a scientist who is not deeply sceptical of their business model hence the link I provided you with which should be read by anyone giving their DNA to so that they understand exactly the implications and do not entertain the misconception that they are going to find out where their distant ancestors actually come from. www.ucl.ac.uk/biosciences/molecular-and-cultural-evolution-lab/debunking-genetic-astrology You are quite right to say that you can get to a certain point further on with historical records and DNA as the website suggests but what average person is going to understand the intricacies and limitations of data plus DNA plus algorithms (though I think by now most people get that the latter can be very flawed)?

These companies are very happy to allow people to be dazzled by the “Science” because it fills their coffers with the real value to their company, DNA.

In any case it is so much more interesting to go through the historical record if they exist and much more dangerous to go down the DNA route if they don’t

I agree @Muttly - I liked something random on Facebook about the friend of one of my American friends and one of my best friends from home messaged me to tell me that the person was her husbands second cousin who lived in Boston. Such a small world really (at least if you're Irish!)

Yes, I agree with what you are saying OP.

I have a few people of italian heritage in my family (through marriage).

I can remember years ago when the Sopranos was big, they would be watching all their "Italian American" stuff in fascinated horror. Nothing even remotely italian. (Yes, I know it's tv, but still).

But as has been stated upthread, I guess it's just a way of keeping people together and close to their roots and it evolved overtime. Although also agree that it can be divisive and exclusionary.

@RVN123

As a Scot who lived in the USA for two years I can agree with a few observations! It was amazing the amount of 'Scotch' people I came across, who were born in the States and had actually never set foot outside it never mind visiting their 'homeland'! And I remember reading about some parade (can't remember it it was Boston or somewhere) where the 'Scots' parade around in their tartan and are hugely proud of their 'clan' family name etc. It's all a bit cringey. I've never met a real Scot who gives a toss about clans, most probably couldn't tell you what one they would have belonged to or care to research it. It's just not something that's important in everyday life. I think its the romanticised version of Scotland they love, the hill and Glens, the Lochs, whisky, tartan, bagpipes, haggis. When the only time we actually care about any of those things is probably Hogmanay! It just doesn't represent Scotland in the modern world. I think these people actually feel more Scottish than someone like me who was born and bred here! I used to get asked if I "knew so and so", as they had a friend or family member from Scotland, as if we all know each other and Scotland is so small that we are all on first name terms! I find it all quite amusing, as I'm sure the Irish do too.

Not all Scots are the same actually. Me for one. We go to a Burns Supper every year. I love whisky, tartan, bagpipes and haggis. But we are country bumpkins and not as sophisticated as the cosmopolitan types.

Kingsley I was recently in a lecture on the formation of Korean culture /identity/ nationhood where someone put up their hand and said that her daughter worked for ancestry U.K. (she specified the company) so she knew that the DNA of people in the peninsular was identical to that of people on the Chinese mainland so should we not think of Koreans as Chinese by another name?

Now quite apart from the fact that DNA does not support notions of race as biological as opposed to socially constructed, it just shows how dangerous these misconceptions can be in fostering racist and nationalist prejudices

mobile.twitter.com/redmondmichael1/status/1407305515953238016

Kids who were brought up in London, Coventry/Birmingham etc as kids of Irish immigrant parents were totally steeped in Irish communities. Catholic schools where everyone else was Irish (or Italian or Polish), extra curricular activities of GAA, Irish dancing, music. A lot of people never really met that many 'English' people in their childhoods, and many people went on to marry other Irish/Irish descent people living in England as well.

I agree with this & also think just growing up in London is quite different to growing up in other parts of the UK, particularly in the past. I said upthread I didn't know anyone who wasn't a 2nd gen immigrant until I went to uni. My school friends & neighbours were all 1st or 2nd gen immigrants.

@switswoo81
I'm Irish and spent a year in Boston. [. . . ]
Ironically while there a customer started the usual do you know... And I did!

I absolutely love that!

@TwoLeftSocksWithHoles

I met someone in a pub who, I'm pretty sure, was part Neanderthal although he didn't declare it (he didn't need to actually!)

I k is someone like that!

@Muttly it really is a small world! Someone from my extended Irish community who I knew of through friends randomly met & fell in love with one of DHs friends. My mum had a work colleague that my mil knew from their church. My brother for a time worked in the same building in the city as my DHs best friend.

And my mum has met people on holiday that asked the do you know and she did.

@KittenKong I thought it was a bizarre thing to talk about with the Pope.

Mexican-Americans (or Latinx) have many similarities with African-Americans. They were both segregated and there's always been prejudice against them

On the 'scotch' thing, DH's family background is Scottish (recent, not generations back) and we spend a fair bit of time in Scotland. I have never, ever heard a Scottish person refer to a human being as 'Scotch'. Eggs and whisky, yes, but not people.

Is it only Americans who use the term in that way?

I always describe myself as England. I was born here, raised here, and culturally totally English. I'd never describe myself as British. I have one great grandparent that was Irish, and one a very proud Welsh grandmother, but neither had a big influence on me.

My DD is studying at Uni in Ireland. She has shown an interest in Irish side of the family since being there, and met some distant cousins who have been very kind and helpful to her during her stay. Personally I'd never have bothered to contact them.

I think it is an outdated form which persists in parts of America.

Scotch whisky, scotch eggs, scotch mist. People are not "Scotch". I would also never say "she's Scots" - I would always say "she's Scottish".

@Twentypast

I'm not sneering but genuinely confused why a friend with one set of Irish great grandparents, so 2 people out of 8, 3 generations ago considers herself Irish. She was really angry when she tried to apply for an Irish passport (her ex boyfriend is British and pre Brexit she thought she'd follow him back over) and found she wasn't eligible.

I am, however, definitely sneering at people who voted for Brexit, are happy to make unpleasant xenophobic jokes about Irish people and then, despite having a previous interest in Ireland limited to telling Paddy Irishman jokes, suddenly pride themselves on their savviness in applying for an Irish passport via a grandparent whose Irishness is now useful, rather than an embarrassment.

@MilesJuppIsMyBitch, the footage would be funny, but only if you turned the sound off!

Kingsley Interesting article on how the ancestry market us waning and they are laying off staff and pivoting to the highly lucrative US healthcare market www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/02/07/how-dna-testing-companies-like-ancestry-and-23andme-can-survive.html

Aren’t we lucky that we have GenomeUK who don’t charge us to give our DNA and use it to research how DNA can predict / deliver healthcare outcomes for the NHS which we don’t have to pay for either?

@sst1234

It’s trendy, that’s all. Because no one says they’re ‘English American’, do they? Because it’s just not trendy. It’s not about roots, it’s about ‘ooh look at me, my ancestors come from the land of leprechauns and river dance’.

How obnoxious. It isn't just 'trendy', it's just a different concept of identity. There's a bit more to Ireland than leprachauns and riverdance. Irish-Americans were very significant in the NI Peace Process, and in general Irish people have been far better treated in the USA - in the past 80 years anyway - than they ever were in the UK. The comedic stereotype of the thick Paddy wasn't operative in the USA since the late 19thC whereas in the UK it was quite a different story. So wind your neck in.

It’s easy to pick and chose the ‘nice bits’. So Irish Americans will think of it like a ‘ye olde land’, of singing and dancing simple folk...

To be fair, Riverdance as a production has massively cashed in on this idea!