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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Penelope jackson guilty of murder

407 replies

Thomasina79 · 29/10/2021 16:51

I’ve been following this news item with interest. She is the woman who stabbed her violent and coercive and bullying husband to death after 20 years of torment. She denied murder, but admitted manslaughter.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking the jury should have not found her guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. Murder carries a life sentence in prison and I cannot see that that there is anything to gain by locking her away.

OP posts:
StoneofDestiny · 29/10/2021 23:18

She murdered him, she admitted it and showed no remorse. Seems pretty clear.
She had options to leave - she chose to stay with him. This was her fourth marriage - she was hardly one of life's innocents and the testimonies given at her trial painted her are pretty obnoxious.

Newmumatlast · 29/10/2021 23:19

@girlmom21

If she'd stabbed him once and he'd died they'd have found her guilty of man-slaughter I think.

The judge said the jury to consider whether her actions were a loss of self-control.

One stabbing would've been, potentially. Even 3 stabbings in a mad rage.

It was the fact that she went and stabbed him a further two times when he was calling for help that made it murder. She had time to consider her actions and she chose to kill him.

This is what is key I think. Very very difficult to prove the sudden loss of control after slow burn of DV in circumstances where the person goes back for more when they're not under threat and have been able to move away and regain composure. That coupled with the recordings and her behaviour in them makes me unsurprised at the result. Though of course didnt sit through the whole trial to be able to form a more informed judgement
StoneofDestiny · 29/10/2021 23:20

There were 8 women on her jury - she clearly didn't find them that gullible.

ClafoutisSurprise · 29/10/2021 23:23

Yes, that’s what this case seems to boil down to, Ibiza. That she killed him intentionally was beyond doubt, so she would have needed to convince the jury that this was done in a moment of loss of control brought about by the abuse she claimed. She clearly didn’t, so there was no other option.

It is also interesting that the judge made clear that he was not persuaded that her husband was as she made out. I think we would have been talking about the rights and wrongs of people who kill abusive partners even if they haven’t temporarily lost control if she had proved that she was the victim of abuse. As it is, the focus seems to be on whether or not she might have been abused at all.

But as you say, just alleging it is never going to be enough.

BiLuminous · 29/10/2021 23:29

I don't know if it's been mentioned but on her FB page she posted a meme from somewhere about being stuck in lockdown with her husband and the woman in it was making a noose.
I have a dark sense of humour but even I found that a disturbing thing to share.

blubberyboo · 29/10/2021 23:29

If he had time to dial 999 then she had time to stop and consider what she was doing. Or at least run away from the threat that he allegedly posed to her.

It’s very clear that she didn’t and in fact fully intended to finish him off.

Murder really is the only suitable sentence, and if it had been a woman victim that’s what we would have demanded

50ShadesOfCatholic · 29/10/2021 23:34

@Unsure33

I think people are still missing the point .the abuse was not proven and even IF she was having a breakdown at the time she has shown no remorse since the event either .

She intended to kill him so legally it was murder .

Why do people keep harping on about remorse?

Of course she's not remorseful, she hated him.

Abhannmor · 29/10/2021 23:40

@LittleDandelionClock

I can see way more people on here agreeing that the woman is a dreadful person and definitely a murderer. I see very few people defending Penelope Jackson.
The poll is going the other way though ?
Abhannmor · 29/10/2021 23:51

@Dojacatpaws

Men and women are not physically equal in most cases, I tend to believe its usually the man who abuses
Yes but not in this case. She was taller , and heavier from the photographs. Also 13 years younger, while he was 78 years old with health issues. She was well able for him physically as evidenced by the fact she was able to lock him in the summer house. Over on Twitter the debate is less evenly balanced with people taking it as read he was an bullying abuser as opposed to a cranky old man with possible dementia. I'm afraid if you want to help women victims of domestic abuse this particular case is not exactly helpful.
saraclara · 29/10/2021 23:53

Murder really is the only suitable sentence, and if it had been a woman victim that’s what we would have demanded

Exactly. No way would we have accepted her defence had it come from a man, especially with all the witnesses citing the defendant being the abusive partner.

99victoria · 29/10/2021 23:54

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV! Sums up what our society thinks of women :(

saraclara · 29/10/2021 23:57

@99victoria

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV! Sums up what our society thinks of women :(
No, it sums up how rare it is. Making your point for you.
oviraptor21 · 29/10/2021 23:58

I found the video of her arrest incredibly alarming. Lucid and calm, asking for her coat - a psychopath. Guilty of murder, no question

Regardless of the outcome of this case I truly hope you are never on a jury if you come to that decision purely on the demeanour of the defendant at arrest.

Hont1986 · 30/10/2021 00:14

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV!

The biggest news story this year was about a man killing a woman and it was headline news everywhere.

PurpleOkapi · 30/10/2021 00:21

@99victoria

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV! Sums up what our society thinks of women :(
You hear about them all the time. But you're partially right: in general, the more unusual something is, the more coverage it will get. There's a reason "Man bites dog" makes headlines when "Dog bits man" doesn't, and it's not because of bias against either men or dogs.
prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 00:25

@99victoria

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV! Sums up what our society thinks of women :(
About 25 men a year are killed by women in domestic homicides. This is definitely not the only case this year of a man being killed by a woman, but it is the only one I remember making the headlines. And, as Hont1986 points out, we have had a big news story this year about a man killing a woman.

There are roughly 600 homicides a year in England & Wales. Very few of them make headlines. Most homicides, domestic or otherwise, go under the radar regardless of the sex of the victim.

TaraR2020 · 30/10/2021 00:32

This was such a tragic case, awful thing to happen and I agree with one the early pps who pointed out we can't possibly know enough about it to form conclusive opinions.

However, when the subject is one that affects the lives of so many, its natural that discussion will take place.

Personally, I think there's been enough research to show that people in shock often behave and talk in ways like she did in the video. We can't know, really, how much shock and disassociation played in her initial reaction to her attack on him but we should acknowledge that some women may well behave in this way when in a disassociation state because they've snapped after years of abuse.

We're also told that she behaved in a deliberately provocative manner. Now some relationships become toxic because the initial victim doesn't know how to stand up for themselves except by adopting aggressive and abusive behaviour too.

We can't know if this was the case here, but we can acknowledge that it happens in some relationships. What does seem clear is that they had a toxic relationship in which there seems to have been abuse on both sides. I've known men be the victims of awful dv by women and just because the balance of numbers swings the other way doesn't mean they should be denied justice or protection.

Being unable to prove abuse in court doesn't mean it didn't happen, so this could be an awful case in which an abused woman finally snapped, experiencing some sort of mental fugue state. Or it could be that she was the abuser who coldly murdered him. Or it could be that it was a highly toxic marriage in which a series of events led to her murdering him so horribly.

The jury found her guilty of murder and tbh, on the little we know, I don't see how they could have come to another conclusion.

That male violence against women goes unjustly unpunished, or lightly punished, is terrible and needs urgent addressing. Anything less than a life sentence for men who murder their partners in a temper or through claiming rough sex is abhorrent. But I think in this case we can't say anything other than justice has been served, however tragic the circumstances leading up to the crime may be.

It's hard to comprehend for some people that one of "our own" could have committed such a terrible crime, especially when we witness so many women denied justice and help when they're the victims of domestic violence, but if we deny that her guilt could even be a possibility then we are just as bad as all those men who claim Not All Men and deny their friend or colleague could possibly have raped that woman because He's-Such-A-Nice-Guy or a guilty verdict would Ruin-His-Life.

Their families will have to live with the reality of this terrible crime forever and probably with very little support. Their children must be going through hell.

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/10/2021 00:50

@99victoria

About 120 women a year in the UK killed by men. You never even hear about them. One case of a woman killing a man and it makes HEADLINE news on the TV! Sums up what our society thinks of women :(
So you’ve never heard of these women? Agnes Wanjiru Sarah Everard Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman Sabina Nessa
x2boys · 30/10/2021 02:41

@Suzanne999

I thought more manslaughter than murder —- she snapped, picked up a knife. It doesn’t sound as if she planned to kill him that night. Having once been married to an abusive man ( I walked) there were many times I wished he’d die.. Not nice, I’m not proud of it but living with a man who mentally abuses week after week is horrendous.
You didn't see her telling the police that she hoped they were to late to save him or that when he dialled 999 she put the phone down on him and carried instabbinf him ? not sure how that is manslaughter,you can't just decide it's not murder based on your own personal circumstances.
x2boys · 30/10/2021 02:42

On stabbing *

itsgettingwierd · 30/10/2021 04:40

@saraclara

No-one wants to believe that 'someone like us' (even if it's as global as 'any woman' is capable of such a thing. I dare say most men feel that way too, when they read about abuse and murder carried out by those of their sex (which is of course much more frequent).

But we can't let it make us incapable of objectivity and reason. And this seems to be what's happening with some posters. They don't want to believe it, so they refuse to see it.
I'm still stunned by the poster who assumed that the judge was incapable of advising the jury impartially because he's a man. I mean...c'mon.

True
mountbattenbergcake · 30/10/2021 07:05

The prosecution said Mr Quinlan “was not controlling, as his wife went regularly to the gym and would go shopping with friends.”

They have zero understanding of coercive control.

mountbattenbergcake · 30/10/2021 07:06

“Asked if he ever saw Mr Jackson hurt the defendant, Mr Potterton replied: 'No, he once or twice raised his hand in frustration and on no account did I envisage he would do anything, and he never did.'”

If he can raise his hand to her in public, God knows what he did in private.

mountbattenbergcake · 30/10/2021 07:09

@LizzieSiddal

She was married 4 times. Her 3rd husband killed himself and she admitted in court that she’d driven him to suicide. It’s emerged that whilst he was abroad she had his two dogs put down! She sounds an absolutely horrid woman. Yes, her 4th may have been abusive but she she sounds abusive too.
Any source for this?

The papers said he committed suicide because of her affair with the victim. That doesn’t mean she drove him to suicide.

And funny how you don’t say the victim drove his own son to suicide, even though the son left a note saying he didn’t want to be like his dad.

mountbattenbergcake · 30/10/2021 07:15

@saraclara

It continues to be really disturbing that many mumsnetters simply cannot let themselves believe that a woman can be capable of cold blooded murder. The desperation to blame her victim for no other reason than that he was male, is stunning. The spurious comparisons between her sentence and that of men whose cases were entirely different are just so illogical.

Several witnesses stood up and said that she was the abuser, but him. But that's just glossed over.

Oh, and she was only found guilty of murder because the judge was a man. That was a good one.

Spurious comparisons?

Anthony Williams was sentenced to just 5 years even though he admitted he ‘choked the living daylights’ out of his wife because he ‘just flipped’.

Jackson also said she just flipped.

Society is much too forgiving of men, and too quick to subscribe to the trope of the hen pecked husband.

Remember the courts still allow for crimes of passion aka ‘loss of control’ as mitigation for murder, and again, these are mostly carried out by men but women are not given the same leniency. There is a higher bar for women.