To wonder why it takes a GP 7 years to train?

[Swedes2Turnips1]

When all they seem to do is say 'I will write you a letter of referral' or 'You will have to make an appointment with the practice nurse for that'. What do they actually do these days?

I was merely pointing out the hassle factor of two separate appointments. When you are not feeling that well, things can seem a struggle.

I have the misfortune to live in West Herts PCT which is one of the most indebted PCTs in the country. It makes wasting NHS resources all the more outrageous and it does not give seamless care to the patient. As far as the patient is concerned there is one NHS but in reality there are hundreds of different cost centres whose principal aim is ducking responsibility and its concomitant cost. That's how it is if you live somewhere where the PCT has no money.

I have a vague feeling that France has a plethora of laboratories on every street corner which means far less queuing and parking and what not if you do need a test. Where I am the nearest lab is not too far away (about 20min walk), but you must start queuing from 9am in the mornign for a test (you can't get an appointment) and if, as my husband found, the lab needs to close for some reason you find a notice on the door and a lot of disappointed people hanging about who have probably taken a day's leave. I would not want to take two toddlers there.

Actually swedes you weren't - your title and OP is scathing and dismissing of GP's you didn't mention the hassle factor till challenged...I think what most people objected to and thought YABU was this initial lack of respect/understanding of GP's (and those who are managed well by them in serious illness)...but maybe we are all misunderstaning you as you are clearly so much superior ....

Back again - see this is still going - I work in the NHS - could you guess? In my experience - when people get angry about NHS resources being wasted they generally mean that those resources are not being spent on them in the way they want. I see nothing in swedes posts to make me alter that view.

oh but Northern you're a manager ;) So clearly this is all your fault

and the two appointments thing.

We had two appointments today.

and the last one was to discuss a nerve block with a consultant anaethetist. Thankfully dh doesn't need it atm, as it has a 2% risk of paraplegia.

the NHS may not be that good at the small stuff. In the past (god forgive me) I've moaned about wating days for a doctor's appointment. But when the shit really hits the fan, it is heroic in what it does for people.

Macdoodle - I am sorry you find me superior I think you will find that a lot of GPs think it is crap too and a waste of their many years' medical training. Most GPs have long acknowledged that their patient is often the very best person to tell them what the problem is.

ooh you missed a post never mind though ;)

Macdoodle - that's right and I'm spending the whole of my maternity leave thinking up ways to persecute doctors

oh well you don't need a doctor then swedes

Northernlurker - I went less from the NHS not more. You are an NHS manager .

Now don't fall over with shock but managers are just as likely to be working in the NHS because they want to benefit people as any other NHS worker. Yes the sums have to sort of add up - but we really aren't trrying to screw you all!

It doesn't sound as though your particular GP's surgery / PCT is especially well organised. DH has been tested for low thyroid function several times (his mother and one of his sisters have it, so any time he's displaying any of the possible symptoms they have a needle stuck in him almost immediately) and has always had the blood taken at the GP's surgery by the nurse and sent off -- one visit, no fuss, he can call up for the results, doesn't cost £32 (well, it probably does, but not at the point of use).

Your PCT's processes could probably be significantly improved.

But I feel that just perhaps you failed to capture those subtleties by asking "Am I being unreasonable to wonder why it takes a GP 7 years to train when all they seem to do is say 'I will write you a letter of referral' or 'You will have to make an appointment with the practice nurse for that'. What do they actually do these days?"

I would be absolutely happy to just go for the NHS blood test. I will then see a doctor once the adverse results are in. It is a waste of their time and my time for any preliminary appointment with a doctor. I feel so depressed I could cry.

But NL, how else can people think? What they are concerned about is how the NHS affects them as a person. When I go into a coffee shop, I'm concerned over the quality of the coffee I personally get. They may well do an excellent panini, but if I don't want one it's not much good to me. The NHS has to balance the needs of its patients, and that includes taking into account the costs of waiting and queuing. I don't doubt the excellent quality of the staff (yourself and macdoodle included) and the fantastic care it can offer. But people should be allowed to feed back when the NHS is not meeting their needs - it's not called a public service for nothing.

Swedes maybe you need to see the doctor for a chat about how you are feeling, possible a blood test or whatever test you mey need
and if yiu dont mind me saying so you sound a bit overwhelmed and not 100% so a visit is actually necessary anyway?

Portandlemonaid - I agree. I apologised earlier in the thread for being facetious about doctors in general. I was pissed off with a highly trained doctor for allowing himself to be a paper pusher.

swedes joking aside...""I feel so depressed I could cry"" why?? because you couldn't have a blood test, because of the state of the NHS, because your GP is crap...or because you feel ill???
If you are thinking that a low thyroid will cure your problems then you do need to see your GP...THAT is what they are there for...to discuss with you other options/diagnoses/management...not just order a blood test!

Apart from baby check ups/preg check ups and well woman screening, I haven't been to the GP since I was 11.

I am regular MNer, but I keep my occupation secret - MN is my break from RL, I'm a different person on here.

In RL I'm a GP.

I don't normally even open these sorts of threads, I just read the title, think "oh someone else doctor-bashing, so what's new" and feel a little sad.

I don't know why I clicked on this one, I think because the title was so inane.

It took me 9 years to train as a GP - 5 at uni, 1 as a PRHO (junior doctor) and 3 on a GP vocational training scheme. That is the minimum length of time it takes to qualify as a GP, you cannot do it in less. I have worked in orthopaedic surgery, general/upper GI surgery, renal medicine, endocrine medicine, A&E, psychiatry, Obs&Gynae, dermatology and general practice. I have to know, as people have said on this thread, something about every single part of medicine and psychiatry. I have to know when someone is sick and when someone isn't. Every day of my working life I have to work out who could have something life-threatening and what to do about it, and how to treat all the other ailments, life-threatening or not. And all the time I have to deal with ignorance in the media, on MN! and sometimes (thankfully more rarely) in RL from people who think I am more stupid than hospital specialists, that my traiing is easier, that my job is easy, that all I do now is paperwork and fill my bank account charging patients unfairly. I do not earn £150,000. My full-time partners earnt £72,000 last year - and we are more than happy with what we earn BTW, we're just sick of people assuming we earn twice what we do.

And more often than I would like I have to deal with people who think they know better how the system works, or how I should do my job, or that I am simply a portal to refer patients on to secondary care because I have no medical skills of my own.

It takes 9 years to train as a GP because it's a bloody hard job that involves caring for people from the time they are conceived until their death.

And I am nearly brought to tears by this thread, which I assumed would be doctor bashing, but turns out to be lots of people leaping to GPs' defenses, and it's such a long time since I've seen that anywhere on MN or in the press, that I am humbled.

What we actually do all day, Swedes, is work bloody hard thank you very much.

itscoldtoday - thankyou for your post.

I didnt know how to respond - my dh is a GP and he works very hard, is bloody good at his job and also earns nothing near £150k.

You have expresed it so well.

I am hugely dependent on my wonderful GP to manage my collection of health issues. They are particularly - again from my experience as a patient - good at general psychiatry. I do hope you will go and see your GP, Swedes.

I usually avoid these sorts of threads too, having been a hospital doctor prior to DD.

Swedes2turnips1

It would be quite reasonable for GPs to train for less than 7 years if everyone already knew what was wrong with them and what tests they need.

In the main the problem is not GPs - the problem is with patients who think they know how to do their doctor's job.

What you seem to want is for someone to be able to order their own tests on the NHS. Deciding on whether to order investigations which you may perceive as simple and straightforwards is actually nothing but which is why GPs need to be so skilled.

I do however take your point that it is a hastle if your practice does not have a phlebotomist. All I can suggest is that you explain your situation to the GP and ask him nicely if he wouldn't mind taking the blood whilst you're there if it actually needs doing. (This will have a greater chance of success if you start the consultation by asking for his/her advice rather than saying "I need you to write me a form so I can have some blood taken".)