Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

@Crankley

A question for the OP.

You're in a room with tnineteen other women, all black except one white woman, all are wearing an identical dress, all have black hair, similar style and brown eyes, all similar height and weight.

Someone asks you to verbally describe the one white woman in the room. How will you do that without describing her as white and when you do, are you being racist?

I’ve never been in this situation before. Genuinely, I’ve never faced a scenario where I was forced to bring up someone’s race, I can’t imagine where some people here live if this it happens regularly that you have no other way of describing someone and race is the only thing you can use.

Besides, my op wasn’t talking about pointing someone out of a crowd.

I agree that black and white are inaccurate as no one is actually black or white, and they are terms that are rooted in racism. Black being bad (e'g blacklisted, black magic, blackmail) and white being good (white lie, fairest of them all etc) but I think it's very difficult to not refer to someone's ethnicity when pointing them out, same with disability/sex/dress style etc.

Also agree that race is a construct as it's been proven many a time we are all one race with tiny genetic differences to change our skin/hair/eye colour and features. Language is outdated for the most part ...

I refer to myself as mixed ethnicity. However I agree that sometimes someone pointing out skin colour can be hostile and racist, for example the age old question we always get 'But where are you really from?'

Context and intent as a PP said...

@MenimeMay

except there's no nationality called Black. It's obvious where the Chinese, Indian and Spanish ladies are from. What about the Black lady?

Are we confusing ethnicity and nationality though? Someone could have a Spanish nationality but be any ethnicity. I know someone who was born and raised in Nigeria, they are Nigerian by nationality, but they are "white".

No we're not. Are you? Chinese, Spanish and Indian are all nationalities. Black lady can be of British, Chinese, Jamaican, American, Nigerian, Ghanian or Kenyan nationality. Where is her nationality? Why mix nationality and race? That's all I'm saying.

Race and terms can be such a minefield, and I think so many people are afraid of saying the wrong thing. My dps think that Black is politically incorrect, and that "you aren't allowed to say that!". I have no idea where that came from but they would say 100 descriptions about someone before saying Black.
I was trying to educate myself so started following Black women on social media (as they were talking about issues pertinent to race) and one of them described herself as WOC. I started using that, but when I commented on another (Black) woman's page using WOC she jumped down my throat, saying that it was lazy and racist as I was lumping together all non white women. I was totally mortified, so avoid saying anything in fear of offending someone.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

I'll be honest, this thread will eventually get full of comments from racist posters ,end up in a bun fight and get very upsetting for the people OP is trying to "protect". It always ends that way . So one might wonder if she really is that naive.

It's a dog whistle racism thread. It's purely here to goad, like the pp who got brave enough whinge about "Black Lives Matter" We see them for what they are.

Exactly. If you’re a “black lady”, then that’s all you are, ethnicity or nationality apparently don’t exist for “black ladies” but it does exist for Chinese, Spanish and Indian ladies.

Except Chinese can and is used for people from Japan, Philippines, Korea etc.

That Indian lady? She's just as likely to be from Bangladesh, Pakistan etc.

Spanish? South American (with it's many countries) or Greek, Turkish, Portuguese etc.

Add in Eastern European .

The majority of people that use those terms about someone they don't know , generalise just as much as using black.

@SickAndTiredAgain

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone teaching their kids to call people “the white man”. Race is only acceptable to mention, from what I’ve seen in real life if you’re pointing out that someone is black. I’ve never heard people point out someone is white before. Could be just me though.

I’m not sure that’s always true. Generally speaking I do agree that race is mentioned when the race isn’t white but as a descriptor of one person amongst a group of people then whatever is distinguishing is referenced.

For example, if you say to someone “you need to speak to Dave, he’s over there.”
And the person says “which one is Dave” your reply will depend if what distinguishes Dave. If Dave was the only black person in the group, you’d say that, but if he was the only white person, you’d say that too. Or if he was the only one sitting down, or the only one with a beard, or the only one holding a cup of coffee. When you’re describing one person out of a group, you use the thing that will distinguish them, in group of people where half were black and half were white, you wouldn’t describe Dave using his race, whatever it was. But if it was a group of men, similar ages, all in shirts and ties all standing round in a group, and all were white except Dave (or all black except Dave), it would be unusual to come up with another descriptor - “oh Dave? He’s the umm third tallest guy over there”

Exactly. If you’re a “black lady”, then that’s all you are, ethnicity or nationality apparently don’t exist for “black ladies” but it does exist for Chinese, Spanish and Indian ladies.

Is that better? Because I’d hazard a guess that plenty of people described as “Chinese” based on looks alone are in fact not Chinese at all. Or even have Chinese ancestry. And they quite possibly don’t appreciate the many countries in East Asia all being seen as “Chinese.”

But to me and others, we’re not black at all but if it’s fine to refer to random people as black if you don’t know if that’s how they consider themselves, then it should be fine for you to call random East Asians you meet Chinese, even if you don’t know whether they consider themselves Chinese or not. It’s the same thing.

Is the “Black Mumsnetters” section racist because of its name? Because I remember the thread(s) that led to its creation and lots of people were calling for it?

I find this genuinely confusing and would hate to think that someone would consider me racist. My DD recently started secondary school. She came home telling me the new friends she made every day. I met a girl called 'sue' she is blonde, shorter than me (noted because my DD is short). I met a girl called 'Paula' I make a funny face as we have had issues with a girl called paula before. She says no not that one, she is lovely and not that it's interesting but she is black. Is she being racist? I don't think she is, we sadly live in a very very white area and so she is happy to have a mixture of culture in her friendship group. We had a chat about her surname the other day because My DD was saying it's beautiful but unusual to her ears. I feel that wasn't racist, she was saying how she felt, nothing negative just observations. She always comments on her hair as she has it in really nice styles, is that racist?

You are very contradictory.

You don't object to the black mumsnetters section but you do object to anyone using the word 'black'.

How does this make sense??

My view is that context is everything. If I'm asked by the Police to describe an incident where I saw a woman get mugged, how can I do this without mentioning skin colour?

"The woman was black, with long hair and she was wearing jeans and a red coat, the man was white with ginger hair and a brown jacket"

If you take away the skin colour, the description is pretty meaningless.

However if I say "Have you met Louise, the black lady who works in Finance?", this in my view is racist as her skin colour is irrelevant.

@MilkywayMonarch22

I agree that black and white are inaccurate as no one is actually black or white, and they are terms that are rooted in racism. Black being bad (e'g blacklisted, black magic, blackmail) and white being good (white lie, fairest of them all etc) but I think it's very difficult to not refer to someone's ethnicity when pointing them out, same with disability/sex/dress style etc.

Also agree that race is a construct as it's been proven many a time we are all one race with tiny genetic differences to change our skin/hair/eye colour and features. Language is outdated for the most part ...

I refer to myself as mixed ethnicity. However I agree that sometimes someone pointing out skin colour can be hostile and racist, for example the age old question we always get 'But where are you really from?'

Context and intent as a PP said...

I understand that but saying "where are you really from" is quite different from a child visually describing someone using the most obvious identifier available to them.

"Where are you really from?" is a) pig ignorant and b) dripping with the implication that the person on the receiving end is "not really one of us" so is pretty aggressive.

A child who has yet to learn that race is a social construct with the potential for offence but who has learned to identif people as "black" usually because they self-identify as "black" is simply picking up on identifiers they can use.

And as "black" is the least offensive and most widely-used identifier, its logical that their parents would prefer them to use this word than a more offensive word such as "coloured", surely?

So if I was walking down a busy street with my daughter and she said "mummy look at the beautiful dress that black lady is wearing" that would be offensive to you?

I can see it would be offensive if she knows your name, to me black is a descriptive term. I lived in a relatively small African country for 3 years and I was constantly referred to as the white lady

Knowing someone is black may help diagnosis...such as sickle cell anaemia*
Sickle cell is interesting because it’s not caused by being black, but there is a correlation with being black. The genetic mutation that causes sickle cell is favoured by natural selection in parts of the world where malaria is common because it also protects you against malaria. People with heritage in those parts of the world (where most people are black) are thus more likely to suffer from sickle cell.

But then how do you teach children about ‘Black History Month’ which it is currently - what do you say it’s referring to?

@thepeopleversuswork of course it's different when a child (of a certain age!) does this, as they largely don't know any different and as humans (especially children) we are very visual. Also agree that there aren't much better terms than Black and White in the uk sadly.

If a child or adult is describing an individual then eyes, hair colour and skin colour are part of a description, in my view it is not racist.

What an astonishing number of posters who routinely describe somebody as white. Just as often as they describe somebody as black (presumably much more often if they’re living in Britain).

I’m sure they’re telling the truth.

@Comedycook

I’ve never heard people point out someone is white before

Really?! If I saw a crime being committed by a white person and I was describing the perpetrator to the police, I'd absolutely say that the person was white.

So would I. I live in a very diverse area of London and if for example had to describe someone to the police would, certainly say they were white.

As a white person I would not be offended by being described as white.

I'm all for learning from others but find the OP confusing and contradictory here.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

I'll be honest, this thread will eventually get full of comments from racist posters ,end up in a bun fight and get very upsetting for the people OP is trying to "protect". It always ends that way . So one might wonder if she really is that naive.

I feel like it seems like people are having pretty reasonable discussion or maybe I am just naive

"Where are you really from?" is a) pig ignorant
I’d presume they were doing a poor job of asking which country your family was from before they lived here. It could be phrased better but I don’t think it’s rude to ask that? I get asked that all the time because my name is stereotypical of a particular country but I don’t look or sound like I’m from that country.

Black people have been saying for a long time that they want the word black being used to describe them as opposed to skirting around and using more offensive terms ‘coloured’ etc. You are the only person who I have ever heard say otherwise.

I am white. I have no issue being described as white. Technically I’m not white, I’m pink but racially I am white and I don’t argue the finer points of my exact skin tone because we all know that people don’t think I am actually white when they say white. The same as when someone says black to describe someone who is in fact brown.

I find it hard to take what you say seriously when you come out with comparisons using the word bitch which is derogatory (yes even in rap and I challenge you to provide an example of it being used in a non derogatory way). The word black is never derogatory. Derogatory terms to describe someone’s skin colour and yes I would be absolutely agreeing with you. This is not that.

@SprayedWithDettol

I agree with your position OP. By saying ‘the black lady’ suggests that the standard is white and the person being discussed deviates from the standard. I don’t ever hear the ‘white lady’ as a descriptor. I am white and I think it is racist.

I think it depends on where you live/ work

I live in a predominantly white area but work in a very mixed area one city over.

A support worker knocked on my classroom door last week and said he was here to see x person. It's discrete support. I told him that x person was the white gent on table 3.

Quick, easy and hopefully acceptable. I'm still learning - I chat with my students all the time about preferences, what they experience etc. I hope I'm never offensive

Also of course someone should use someone's name but I can't imagine anyone referring to someone's skin colour unless they didn't know their name and were trying to differentiate the person from someone else. If I were the only white person in a group, someone might well say the white woman as a way of differentiating me from others. You sound like a professional in being offended. There are many people on here who disagree with you; many of these people are black or have a different skin tone. Why should you be more right than these people?

Two of DD's friends have long curly black hair and brown skin so those characteristics alone wouldn't identify them. If she said that Friend M was Latina and Friend A was African- American, I'd know who was who.

Would that work for you, OP? DD is the white girl in the group.