To ask which is the best country for an NHS doctor to Immigrate?

[JetRocket]

Just looking for advice on which are the best/easiest countries for an NHS doctor midway through specialist training (finished CT3) to immigrate to?

We have 2 small children and only speak English fluently.

Anyone who has done it before, would be very pleased to hear your thoughts. Never thought we’d consider it but after 2 years of beyond hideous treatment we just can’t cope anymore our families mental health and work life balance is in shambles.

Everyone pays taxes in some form, including everyone who works for the NHS.
Healthcare staff aren't indentured labour.

I'd have more sympathy for people objecting to OP considering leaving if the UK hadn't ruthlessly recruited healthcare and social work staff from overseas for decades, often from much more vulnerable countries.

I agree with the PP about trying to make sure you're moving to something rather than moving away from something. I'm not a doctor, but had an interesting chat with a family member who is who emigrated to Australia about five years ago. Different reasons, her partner is Australian, and she was a consultant when she moved, but she did have small children. Her account of it was basically, the lifestyle is good for them as a family (particularly being around his family, and her commute is much less) but that professionally, she finds it a bit parochial and she sees much fewer interesting cases. That being said, she was a specialist in a London hospital that got sent all the interesting cases in her area from across the UK, she frequently went to international conferences, was involved in clinical trials, and she had been working in her field many years. There just isn't the same level of specialism where she is, and think she finds it v frustrating professionally, but it was a v big shift from her work before and I imagine if you were, say, a GP it would be a different experience. So I guess I'd suggest not just speaking to medics who have made the move but ones in your chosen area of specialty.

We have other friends who emigrated to Australia for lifestyle reasons and are somewhat regretting it now, and looking at a move to the states. They aren't doctors, but work in a fairly international field and again feel quite cut off as time goes by. Property prices in Sydney are absolutely insane, but they have come across quite a bit of off-hand racism and don't want to move outside Sydney as they fear it would be worse. They also say childcare costs are astronomical, even compared to London, and there's an assumption that women will work part time until their children are in school so full-time places are really hard to get. All areas its worth exploring. On the other hand, I know people who went to Australia for a year or so and decided to stay and become citizens, they're fully integrated, love being outdoors, and would never come back. I think its very easy to get sucked into thinking 'Oh the lifestyle is better in X place' but in reality different people in the UK have very different lifestyles, so it depends on what you're looking for.

Finland? They have an excellent Social Care system and I have heard it is THE place for specialist Cancer treatment. Also Norway and Holland. (Holland is hard to get into)

THANK YOU EVER so much for all your care, time dedication and hard work for the NHS. I used to worked for NHS years ago and I completely get why you want to leave. It was a fabulous care system but is now poorly managed, poorly governed, poorly funded and being run into the ground and driving people out. I wouldnl;t want your mental health or family to suffer. Be happy

I'm researching the same path but in education. The Tories continue to ruin our education system.

p.s. Mantlemoose

Sadly, you have illustrated my point beautifully.... Now, Go. Away.

@JetRocket sorry when I said Finland's specialist Cancer treatment I realise I don't know your husband's specialism or your own but I meant Breast Cancer.

Best of luck!

Seems like most go to NZ. Dont go to SA. I do think Gibralter might be a good option, my DH considered it a while back but who knows what its like post brexit.

Australia - prob Western Australia

While I sympathise hugely with anyone in today's NHS, the government did pay for most of your medical training? It takes an average of £220,000 to train a doctor in the UK. I expect to get shot down for this, but unless you are willing to pay back a substantial proportion of that from future earnings made elsewhere, it might be best to stay in the UK. It is being widely recognised that the NHS has reached rock bottom, so maybe the only way is up? if you can stick it out. Is there any chance of moving to a different NHS Trust area that might be better run?

@HyacynthBucket

While I sympathise hugely with anyone in today's NHS, the government did pay for most of your medical training? It takes an average of £220,000 to train a doctor in the UK. I expect to get shot down for this, but unless you are willing to pay back a substantial proportion of that from future earnings made elsewhere, it might be best to stay in the UK. It is being widely recognised that the NHS has reached rock bottom, so maybe the only way is up? if you can stick it out. Is there any chance of moving to a different NHS Trust area that might be better run?

Should someone be beholden to one job in one country under one employer because of a career decision that was made, potentially, at 18 years old? How long should someone have to work in the NHS before it is acceptable to move on? It sounds like the OP has already done 5 years at least, plus don't forget medical students can be valuable contributors to the NHS workforce.

If the government is spending that much on training doctors and then cannot retain them, it needs to look at what is going wrong. In the meanwhile, the OP has zero obligation - contractually or morally - to suffer at work. I can't think of any other job (except maybe teachers!) where the public thinks it is acceptable to dictate someone's career choices. Doctors pay tax and doctors are not public property.

I’m a kiwi living in Uk. Non medic but medic family members / good friends etc in both Uk and Nz. I’d be a dr in Nz in a heartbeat. Amazing pay (cf Uk) - a bit of a random measure but Uk dr friends struggle to pay for private schools but that’s a breeze in Nz (or easy to buy a house in a good state school zone).
As you’re not fully qualified you may only be able to find roles in the less popular and/or remote parts of Nz eg west coast or south land. As per the PP, you need to enjoy the outdoors to enjoy Nz. Especially if you have a remote posting.

@HyacynthBucket

While I sympathise hugely with anyone in today's NHS, the government did pay for most of your medical training? It takes an average of £220,000 to train a doctor in the UK. I expect to get shot down for this, but unless you are willing to pay back a substantial proportion of that from future earnings made elsewhere, it might be best to stay in the UK. It is being widely recognised that the NHS has reached rock bottom, so maybe the only way is up? if you can stick it out. Is there any chance of moving to a different NHS Trust area that might be better run?

If you’re going to implement this you need to do it from the start of medical school. You can’t suddenly impose it. And if you do, are you going to apply it across the board to all public services? Not only are you talking to people whose working conditions have deteriorated, but also to people who have had a real terms pay cut.

@MooseBeTimeForSnow

Not this bit of Canada unfortunately. Our neighbours were from the US - she’d been a nurse in an ER Department for 25 years and Alberta wouldn’t even let her put a band aid on someone without requalifying.

Seeing as how Alberta is the Texas of Canada, totally ass backwards, this doesn't surprise me at all.

I trained as an Occupational Therapist some 40 years ago. No there was never any contract but the moral expectation from the college was that on qualification we would work for the same number years within the NHS that our training had taken.
I belive that in the armed services, there actually is a contract, for people who do an army funded degree, that they will work in the army for a set number of years once they graduate.

@godmum56

I trained as an Occupational Therapist some 40 years ago. No there was never any contract but the moral expectation from the college was that on qualification we would work for the same number years within the NHS that our training had taken. I belive that in the armed services, there actually is a contract, for people who do an army funded degree, that they will work in the army for a set number of years once they graduate.

Yes but then you didn't pay fees. Now Drs pay tuition fees like anyone else and usual graduate with a debt of circa £80K. I qualified in 1999 and graduated with a debt of £7k!!

Yeah, let's guilt-trip them into staying. Rather than actually properly staffing well maintained hospitals and providing half way decent working conditions and pay that keeps up with both the rising cost of living and how many hours they are actually working, rather than contracted to work.

Dubai. Easy.

I was at a friend's on Friday night. Her husband is a GP and says we are losing people left right and centre to Australia. Apparently in some specialities they can make up to 10k for a private shift!!!

And like a pp has already mentioned we have no problem touting health care professionals from countries that have a dire need for them such as The Philippines and India, but our own get guilted into leaving by some of these attitudes here. You cannot have it both ways!

@HyacynthBucket

While I sympathise hugely with anyone in today's NHS, the government did pay for most of your medical training? It takes an average of £220,000 to train a doctor in the UK. I expect to get shot down for this, but unless you are willing to pay back a substantial proportion of that from future earnings made elsewhere, it might be best to stay in the UK. It is being widely recognised that the NHS has reached rock bottom, so maybe the only way is up? if you can stick it out. Is there any chance of moving to a different NHS Trust area that might be better run?

I'm willing to bet the UK has poached more doctors from much poorer countries that can ill afford to lose them. So it all comes out in the wash. Certainly not one of my doctors in the UK had a UK accent. And most of the hospital staff were European, African, Caribbean.

OP do what's right for you. I'd keep an eye on the rules for medics because post-covid, I bet many countries will sorely need you.

@godmum56

I trained as an Occupational Therapist some 40 years ago. No there was never any contract but the moral expectation from the college was that on qualification we would work for the same number years within the NHS that our training had taken. I belive that in the armed services, there actually is a contract, for people who do an army funded degree, that they will work in the army for a set number of years once they graduate.

You surely know that doctors graduate with a huge amount of debt and that their degree is at least 2 (now often 3) years longer than the average degree. 6 years of degree + 6 years of obligatory work is a long time to be unhappy. Anyway, most doctors pretty much are already obliged to work in the NHS for a significant amount of time. Moving abroad is not an option for many people and working privately is not possible until GP / consultant level.

I'm not sure I want a health system that is staffed by people who are miserable and would far rather be somewhere else. Is it that difficult to look after our healthcare professionals?

Please come to BC specifically Vancouver island. I've been on waitlists for 8yrs trying to get a family Dr. Tried to get into a walk in clinic today. All at capacity by 9am.

I know a number of people who went to Australia. They all came back after a few years though, so make of that what you will.

@HyacynthBucket

While I sympathise hugely with anyone in today's NHS, the government did pay for most of your medical training? It takes an average of £220,000 to train a doctor in the UK. I expect to get shot down for this, but unless you are willing to pay back a substantial proportion of that from future earnings made elsewhere, it might be best to stay in the UK. It is being widely recognised that the NHS has reached rock bottom, so maybe the only way is up? if you can stick it out. Is there any chance of moving to a different NHS Trust area that might be better run?

How about people who trained here are allowed to live where they want because we treat them like shit. Yes it costs us money but if we treated them with decency we would get that back.

However, we also gain when Drs from abroad come to work here - we gain by not having had to pay for them to train.

Swings and roundabouts. It's never been an issue before covid and then all of a sudden people think Drs owe them money. They do not, they have given service, were treated like shite and decided to leave before it killed them.

@orangeautumnleaves

And like a pp has already mentioned we have no problem touting health care professionals from countries that have a dire need for them such as The Philippines and India, but our own get guilted into leaving by some of these attitudes here. You cannot have it both ways!

Yes. It used to be the case that Indian students who were studying an MBBS on government scholarships would get approached by agencies while studying so their first role was in the NHS & they never actually got to work in India.