AIBU to think this new heat pump policy will just push people towards replacing still working gas boilers

[nosyupnorth]

It's pushing me anyway. The subsidy amount offered per household is only a fraction of the cost of a heat pump and the totally only covers a fraction of the population -- which means they're probably also going to wrap it up in a criteria to limit who gets it to pensioners etc so that normal working people get nothing.

If it weren't for this, I would get maximum use out of my boiler before it gives out and then replace it which is the most enviromentally efficient choice but instead I now feel forced to plan to replace my boiler with a new one while I can still get one, which is surely the opposite of a good enviromental choice.

We had a new gas boiler last year. No requirement to have it replaced until it dies a natural death. Heat pumps are massively expensive, even with the subsidy so it will be gas for us for a good while.

@coogee. Probably via water electrolysis, the technology for which is currently also being improved at pace.

You should use your boiler to the end of its lifespan. Then replace it with the most up to date method and cost effective you can afford also avail of al the grants available to you. I have just recently moved into an old house after selling my A rated house. My house was about 7 years old but was insulated well and the heating was an energy efficient one. Yes my electricity went up a bit however i didnt have to buy oil or coal as much. Have now moved into a old house to rent while we build our new house. It has just killed me to get 500l of oil costing at 500e nearly knowing it will only last till just after xmas. I hate radiators hey take up so much space, the house looses so much heat when heating goes off, never had that problem in my old house, it was always warm. Its only October i dread to think what Dec and Jan going to be like in this house. Be open minded for what options you have out there, invest in what you can afford and what is best for your house, its so worth it in the end

Probably via water electrolysis, the technology for which is currently also being improved at pace.

For domestic heating, I’m struggling to see the point of using electricity to make hydrogen, then turning the hydrogen back into electricity with a fuel cell.

@MrsSlocombesPussy

Are we going to have enough electricity generating capacity to power all these heat pumps? We'll also need to charge up our electric cars at the same time.

The national grid is already creaking at the seems. Needs several hundred billion pounds spending on it already.

As an illustration imagine every single on of the idiots queuing for fuel recently over that week, imaging them all doing it every single night for their car. I own both Tesla & Porsche electric vehicles and both recommend that they're kept as close to fully charged as possible, so every night 30 odd million plugging their cars in, plus millions of electric boilers etc etc it's all a complete folly being madly pursued by these loons.

@berlinbabylon

Not sure people will replace them for the sake of it. Even with the subsidy it is going to cost substantially more than gas boiler would.

I am not sure they will work very effectively when they are retrofitted to (in my case, a 1960s) older houses. Our boiler is nearly 30 year old and on borrowed time so I am wondering whether to look into replacing everything with Fischer electric heaters and look at a more sophisticated immersion heater for the hot water. I hate gas anyway. know in the scheme of things it is very safe, but you still get explosions from time to time.

Research reviews on the Fischer heaters, I had a look at them as we're electric and there were a lot of terrible reviews. They come on whenever the temperature drops so could be any time day or night. Day electric energy is much more than night so they end up really expensive (we currently have storage heaters which are crap too so also have an aga). We have an immersion heater and I absolutely hate it, we'll move in the next few years and would never move to another house that was electric. I know the government want to get rid of gas and the price has gone up but I'd still prefer it.

I hate gas anyway. know in the scheme of things it is very safe, but you still get explosions from time

I suspect that far more people are fatally electrocuted every year than are killed in gas explosions.

We've just replaced our 25 year old gas boiler.... with a new gas boiler. It will be much more efficient, and we won't need to supplement with the immersion any more, also upgraded our hot water tank. £3.5K all in. The boiler will take some tolerance of hydrogen input when available.

We live in a very well insulated house, double glazing, cavity wall insulation etc, but even then we would have needed extra work to effectively install a heat pump, and at huge expense.

The thing I can't get round with heat pump technology is that your house has to be completely sealed up to be effective. We always leave windows open on latch, I can't sleep in a sealed room. I just can't see how that would work for us on the fresh air front either. Maybe I am misunderstanding the technology. And don't old houses need to "breathe"?

The thing I can't get round with heat pump technology is that your house has to be completely sealed up to be effective

That is only because they put out a lot less heat than a typical gas boiler can.

You could just size up the heat pump to cope with the heat losses but that would cost more for the pump and the electricity to run it.

If you use oil or gas you can adjust the temperature of the water in your radiators, you might put it up in cold weather. If you use heat pumps the temperature is much lower - the upshot is to warm a house it will have to run for much longer to throw out the same heat. Running it for longer requires electricity for the pump that pumps the hot water round your rads. .......... so in cold weather the whole country could be running heating 24/7 with the odd electric heater for top up. Hopefully they won't be needing electricity for cars too!

BigWoollyJumpers I have a heat pump and am the same as you, windows open, at least a little, year round. Still find the heating performs well.

We've just bought a new gas boiler. Not spending more than we have to - that's daft.

I'm actually tempted by it, particularly since my gas boiler will need replacing soon, but I live in a Victorian end of terrace. I have some insulation but suspect not enough to be suitable

Our ASHP heats our 1960s house just fine, and we sleep with the windows open.

We rent a 10ish year old house which has an air source heat pump with ground floor underfloor heating. I hate it. Hate it so much. It takes an age to change temperature, has a needlessly complicated operating panel, costs a fortune to run and the upstairs radiators seem to cool down when the kitchen is too warm. It also sends a vibration through the house which drives me mad. I hope they've improved because I will do everything in my power to not have one when I move out of here.

I actually said to my DP let's invest in a new boiler quick, no way I'm having a heat pump but thankfully the previous owner updated it only three years ago!

@MasterGland. How do you think hydrogen is made?

Green hydrogen is made from renewable electricity (and water) through electrolysis.

If electricity is going to be "so expensive" that it won't make sense for heating or vehicles, why would green hydrogen be any better? Its main input cost is.....the cost of electricity.

The round trip efficiency of electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity is low. If you can use electricity directly, that is a more effective approach.

I'd recommend reading the three part blog from BNEF
about.bnef.com/blog/liebreich-separating-hype-from-hydrogen-part-one-the-supply-side/

@BigWoollyJumpers. Your house doesn't need to be totally sealed. It's just that you use less energy if you don't let heat out the window.

Heat pumps can heat any building, just like a gas boiler can.. It's just that you would need a bigger heat pump for the more heat you need to produce. Same as a gas boiler - if you want to heat a leaky seven bed room house, you need a bigger boiler than for an energy efficient two bedroom property.

Homes do need ventilation but there are more energy efficient ways of doing it than leaving windows open. Heat recovery ventilation systems move stale air out and fresh air in but recover the heat as they do so, cutting your energy costs as you aren't losing heat out of a vent.

But if you like windows open, you can do that. It's just that you need to use a bit more energy to stay warm. Same as with your gas boiler and the windows being open

@mojomoon didn't BNEFs own hydrogen analyst also state that he thinks hydrogen fuel will still have it's day, because of the plummeting costs of solar to power the electrolysis? (can't remember where I read this) .
It makes sense, I believe, to try to adapt existing gas infrastructure to run on hydrogen. For domestic heating, cost and reliability for the consumer will be a big factor.
With fuel cells, I think range will be the big determinant in the further development of the technology.
Of course, there are unknowns, and you clearly don't agree. So we will have to see what happens, I guess. Perhaps we can reconvene on here in a few years?

It makes sense, I believe, to try to adapt existing gas infrastructure to run on hydrogen. For domestic heating, cost and reliability for the consumer will be a big factor.

Why not just the electricity to heat homes directly? Even better, use the electricity to power a heat pump.

We looked at one for our holiday home, the quote was just shy of £15k, however on top of that we would need to insulate the roof and all internal walls, as the internal walls are exposed brick this would also ruin the property and then need plastering over, painting etc.

The building is grade 2 listed so the outside needs to be preserved, so any external fitting must either be approved, or under ground.

A new oil based boiler was £3k fitted.

lots of interesting comments in this thread but mostly confirming my theory that I'm going to aim to replace my boiler somewhere around 2031/32 regardless of how well it is doing so that I won't have to worry about the current one dying 2036 and being forced to shell out ££££s for a heat pump

the fact of the matter is, if heat pumps were suitable for most people then all the goverment would need to do is put out the info and people would choose to upgrade, not need to be forced into it by the government banning all alternatives.

Unless there is some consideration for the many people in homes where heat pumps aren't viable due to lack of space or age/design of structure and unless we see much better subsidies than a small fraction of the price being offered to a small number of households then the only result I foresee from this boiler ban is a wave of artificial fuel poverty as people either have no way to heat their homes or are forced onto electric which we've always previously been told is far less effiicient than gas

We considered air source, but were quoted 16k for installation of pump, resiting the boiler as it wouldn’t fit in our immersion heater cupboard, new radiators, new loft insulation. Funnily enough, not the kind of cash we have lying around for a one off investment like this, regardless of pay backs which are quarterly over seven years. It’s just too out of reach for our financial situation

DH has looked at the specs for air-source heat pumps, and we honestly don't see the point in them, apart from perhaps for eco new homes.
We live in the country and are on oil. We will replace two boilers for the best we can get, in the next two years, and have a wood-burning stove which supplements (our own wood). Plus have insulated the house and upgraded to double and triple glazing.
Our neighbours removed oil from their home a number of years ago and have an air-source heat pump and PV. They also have had to retain an enormous electric arga which is a vast lump of heat throughout the winter, and uses low-tarrif electricity, plus two wood-burning stoves. The air-source heat pump doesn't seem to do much! Apart from sound like an industrial refrigeration unit clicking on and off regularly through day and night.

They only seem to be good for new fitting companies.
You still need electricity to heat water.

Why not just go back to night-storage heaters?

For us, a ground-source pump would be more effective, but less straightforward to fit so they won't opt for these but push the easier air-source.

Yes, I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing!

I recently moved in to a house with electric storage heaters, intending to upgrade the heating system very quickly

The right storage heaters are actually very good - my mum has them and her house is always warm, unlike our house which is only warm when the heating is on. Her bills are about the same as our combined gas and electricity for a smaller house, so yes, more expensive, but always warm.

My father actually worked for Dimplex many moons ago, I'll have a look at what they offer these days.

Hydrogen - hmmm. Even more explosive than natural gas, although I assume the fuel cells aren't.