To think this class should be closed?

[Jenster03]

I'm a part time primary teacher and in the space of two weeks, 14 children have tested positive out of 30 in my class.
We've had 2 or 3 return in that time, but more and more are testing positive. Now my teaching assistant has it.
AIBU to think we should be sending the class home and remote learning? How would you feel if you were a parent of a child in my class?
Oh, and I'm pretty anxious about my level of exposure too!

To my mind this is clearly a deliberate ploy to gain at least short lived immunity in children prior to flu taking hold this year.
Rightly or wrongly.
Nothing the individual says or does will change this trajectory as its policy, innit?
We just need to crack on and get through this best we can, and make our thoughts known next General Election.
I'm tired of feeling angry all the time.

[quote Hyly68]@BeardyButton

When you lost your job, how did you pay your bills?

It may result in the loss of a job. Again, that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do.

Then how do you provide food and a home for your children, if you lose your job?
What about single parents who only rely on one income?[/quote]
Yes- I think my Dcs home life will be much more greatly affected by loosing our house, my MH or ds MH (he now sees a therapist we were so worried about him) deteriorating, divorce and the fact I now have to work evenings/weekends and put them in after school clubs to make up the hours I have missed studying than staying in school where there are is a high number of covid cases because they may get long COVID. The risks are not comparable.

@motherrunner I don’t know of any schools that have received their monitors either.

For the poster saying the percentage of children getting Long Covid is small, it might be but if we are working on the basis that all children will get COVID that is quite a high number of children with long term health implications

@gingercatsparky

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's the right thing to do anymore. That's not a fact I need to not face and my morals are very much in check thanks. We don't lock down for other illnesses such a flu which causes many deaths each year. The real fact is the welfare of the majority now needs to come before the welfare of the minority. Those minority now need to put into place their own protections how they see fit.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just to point out that the facts you use don’t justify your position. As I said, you are lucky that the Tories are aligned with your take on survival of the fittest. So you are well within your legal and political rights to crack on. Doesn’t make it the right thing to do.

Risk profile wise, Covid is more like polio and measles than flu. I’d go hungry before I willingly let my kid contract measles or polio.

I bought hepa filters for my kids school. Went into debt to do it.

I'm a secondary school teacher. The autumn term has been awful - so much disruption due to PCR testing and Covid cases amongst pupils. It's been really difficult but we can't close schools again. The younger pupils have been severely damaged by lockdown - educationally they are behind where they should be, mental health issues are greater than ever and many are lacking basic social skills. Children need to be at school and as a 50+ teacher, with vulnerable parents I need to just get on with my job, like so many others.

The press seem agitated today about the complacency of Boris. Including overseas press. And the Express is going mad😁

I think some restrictions will return soon

I am so angry at the way children have been screwed over.

2 years of face to face education disrupted to protect us.

Now, adults have had the chance to be vaccinated so many couldn't give a crap about children. You only need to look around and see who can't be arsed to wear a mask or is spouting 'vulnerable people are protected we need to get on with life'.

For the sake of children, school workers and their families..

• masks, isolation of contacts (especially household contacts) and switching to home learning for classes if cases rise to high should remain in place. At least until after that age group is vaccinated.
• additional measures such as investment in ventilation should have happened before now. I know of a school with a top spec system (new build) they don't have this problem of in class transmission.
• Schools shouldn't be prevented from reintroducing bubbles / home learning etc. to keep their population safe.

The policy seems to be to 'take it all in one hit' and get children infected as quickly as possible before winter and fuck anyone who is hospitalised, suffers long covid or looses relatives because of it.

@ImUninsultable

My business shut down because of lock down. I lost earnings for a year and a half. I didnt qualify for any if the supprort grants, like thousands of others. But I guess that doesnt matter to all the hysterics who want to keep everything closed and sit in their houses just wishing the virus will go away.

It wont. This is life. We take sensible precautions. We get vaccinated. We get boosters. We take LF tests twice a week. We wash our hands regularly. We stop touching our faces all the time. We maintain social distancing and masks.

But we dont start closing things up again because it changes nothing. We end up right back here again, over and over. This is life now. Get used to it.

Exactly. Covid 19 can join the ranks of the other seasonal viruses which most people don't notice they have / have a mild illness. Some people sadly become more unwell. But we have a vaccine. 2e don't lock down for flu. We shouldn't lock down for covid again. If you really cared about population health obesity, cars, smoking and alcohol would be far greater priorities to tackle than respiratory viruses.

Some people just seem to love obsessing about covid. The wood for the trees.... Move on!

And I can promise you... my marriage and mental health has suffered. My kid is currently off school. I don’t think it’s Covid. But he had a test this morning. He won’t return until he is healthy and neg result. I believe that is the right approach. I would never knowingly subject others to contracting a terrible disease by sending my child in potentially Covid pos. I would never knowingly subject him to contracting it by sending him to a place I know is rampant with it. I think that is morally wrong, whatever the Tories say about it. And I believe that in any healthy society, the majority should behave in a way that does not mortally endanger the minority. However hard that is.

@StripyHorse

I am so angry at the way children have been screwed over.

2 years of face to face education disrupted to protect us.

Now, adults have had the chance to be vaccinated so many couldn't give a crap about children. You only need to look around and see who can't be arsed to wear a mask or is spouting 'vulnerable people are protected we need to get on with life'.

For the sake of children, school workers and their families..

• masks, isolation of contacts (especially household contacts) and switching to home learning for classes if cases rise to high should remain in place. At least until after that age group is vaccinated.
• additional measures such as investment in ventilation should have happened before now. I know of a school with a top spec system (new build) they don't have this problem of in class transmission.
• Schools shouldn't be prevented from reintroducing bubbles / home learning etc. to keep their population safe.

The policy seems to be to 'take it all in one hit' and get children infected as quickly as possible before winter and fuck anyone who is hospitalised, suffers long covid or looses relatives because of it.

It’s awful. But boris is jst playing to the masses, as evidenced by this thread. Those of us who actually read to inform (as opposed to collect random facts to use out of context and incorrectly to justify selfishness) are hysterical and should jst sacrifice the health of kids so people can have childcare.

@toooldforthis321 yes you are 100% right I changed my mind when it happened to me and I'm happy to take the criticism thrown my way for it.

I am sorry to hear of your recovery, honestly I didn't realise just how much this virus has devastated people in so many ways.

Now, adults have had the chance to be vaccinated so many couldn't give a crap about children. You only need to look around and see who can't be arsed to wear a mask or is spouting 'vulnerable people are protected we need to get on with life

Yes I am quite judgey about elderly people not wearing masks in shops. We locked down to protect them and now they won't even wear masks (and no, they're not all exempt by a very long way - the word "selfish" is massively overused in relation to covid, but they are being selfish).

I went to London yesterday and was very surprised by the low numbers of people not wearing masks on the trains. I have now ordered some FFP2 masks.

However, I think the risk of no education is higher than the risk of covid for most children and schools should be kept open (and it is about EDUCATION, not childcare!!!!). Staff have now been vaccinated (if they want to be). However, simple precautions should be reinstated like opening windows and letting the kids wear coats to keep warm.

Even if it were about childcare, people need to work to eat and keep a roof over their heads.

@gingercatsparky

Ps- you play Russian roulette every time you leave the house, every time you get in a car or cross a road. You are more likely to get hit by a car than you are to get long COVID. Yet everyone still takes their children to school as that what it is so tiny. I will take my changes yes with long COVID as I won't put my life on hold for a very tiny, tiny chance.

Bad analogy. We ve spent at least 100 years crafting policy to promote road safety. And we are still looking to REDUCE these deaths. I would bring my kid to a motor way and open the door. I wouldn’t actively increase my risk of having an accident if I knew conditions were icy. If I lived on a hill, and was snowed in, I d keep my kid off school.

The numbers aren’t tiny tiny for long Covid. The numbers of DEATHS aren’t negligible but are extremely low for children. Inform yourself. At the very least. Know the risk you are taking. And know the risk you are contributing to for others.

@StripyHorse

I am so angry at the way children have been screwed over.

2 years of face to face education disrupted to protect us.

Now, adults have had the chance to be vaccinated so many couldn't give a crap about children. You only need to look around and see who can't be arsed to wear a mask or is spouting 'vulnerable people are protected we need to get on with life'.

For the sake of children, school workers and their families..

• masks, isolation of contacts (especially household contacts) and switching to home learning for classes if cases rise to high should remain in place. At least until after that age group is vaccinated.
• additional measures such as investment in ventilation should have happened before now. I know of a school with a top spec system (new build) they don't have this problem of in class transmission.
• Schools shouldn't be prevented from reintroducing bubbles / home learning etc. to keep their population safe.

The policy seems to be to 'take it all in one hit' and get children infected as quickly as possible before winter and fuck anyone who is hospitalised, suffers long covid or looses relatives because of it.

switching to home learning for classes if cases rise to high should remain in place. At least until after that age group is vaccinated.

Are you happy to pay everyone’s mortgage and bills whilst the parents take time off work to educate their children, until their age group get vaccinated and what about the parents who don’t agree to their young children receiving an experimental vaccine?

@StripyHorse

I am so angry at the way children have been screwed over.

2 years of face to face education disrupted to protect us.

Now, adults have had the chance to be vaccinated so many couldn't give a crap about children. You only need to look around and see who can't be arsed to wear a mask or is spouting 'vulnerable people are protected we need to get on with life'.

For the sake of children, school workers and their families..

• masks, isolation of contacts (especially household contacts) and switching to home learning for classes if cases rise to high should remain in place. At least until after that age group is vaccinated.
• additional measures such as investment in ventilation should have happened before now. I know of a school with a top spec system (new build) they don't have this problem of in class transmission.
• Schools shouldn't be prevented from reintroducing bubbles / home learning etc. to keep their population safe.

The policy seems to be to 'take it all in one hit' and get children infected as quickly as possible before winter and fuck anyone who is hospitalised, suffers long covid or looses relatives because of it.

Your post doesn't make sense. You are angry because children have had their education disrupted for 2 years but you would be happy for school to close again and classes to be online. I don't wear a mask anymore because I can't breathe properly with them on. I'm actually except but struggled on last time. It's not all about being selfish. I want my children to get a decent education not be stuck at home struggling to study, especially as I also have a toddler. It's harsh but we've got to try and live normally now

Bad analogy. We ve spent at least 100 years crafting policy to promote road safety. And we are still looking to REDUCE these deaths. I would bring my kid to a motor way and open the door.

It's not at a bad analogy at all. Despite safety precautions, children and indeed probably any healthy adult, double vaxxed under 65 is almost certainly at more risk from death or serious outcomes from a RTA than covid.

Humans are terrible at assessing risk. Always have been.

Humans are terrible at assessing risk. Always have been

That’s why we are one of the most successful species on the planet 🤨

Humans rely on instinct, and it shouldn’t be ignored. Relying on “numbers and probability” is itself a foolish thing to do. We are human and our emotions play a key part in who we are.

@TheKeatingFive

Bad analogy. We ve spent at least 100 years crafting policy to promote road safety. And we are still looking to REDUCE these deaths. I would bring my kid to a motor way and open the door.

It's not at a bad analogy at all. Despite safety precautions, children and indeed probably any healthy adult, double vaxxed under 65 is almost certainly at more risk from death or serious outcomes from a RTA than covid.

Humans are terrible at assessing risk. Always have been.

“Despite safety precautions”

No!
No hepa filters
Few/no CO2 monitors
No contact tracing
No isolation of close contacts
Rampant community spread
No vaccines for children

All kids have is “open a window and wash your hands” (virus is airborne).

What are these magic safety precautions of which you speak???!!!

A class or yeargroup is not a homogenous blob.

They are individuals.

In my DS's sixth form, some will be double (or triple) vaccinated, some will be single vaccinated, some not vaccinated at all.

Some will have Covid in family members, some will have no Covid at home, some will have fully vaccinated family members, some will have unvaccinated family members.

It is totally unfair/borderline contrary to human rights, to treat a yeargroup as a homogenous blob of equally infectious entities.

My DS is fully vaccinated, and if some antivaxxing numpty in his yeargroup goes off with Covid, I will be extremely disappointed in his school if the school refuse to treat these pupils as individual human beings with differing circumstances and different risk profiles.

There was a reason the government stopped the bubble system, and that was because scientific studies showed that it was no better at stopping transmission than daily testing of close contacts.

Why are schools more willing to send whole yeargroups home than reintroduce mask-wearing?

I think mask-wearing would make a huge difference and enable most yeargroups to remain open.

@Iggly

Humans are terrible at assessing risk. Always have been

That’s why we are one of the most successful species on the planet 🤨

Humans rely on instinct, and it shouldn’t be ignored. Relying on “numbers and probability” is itself a foolish thing to do. We are human and our emotions play a key part in who we are.

Ye gods. What hope have we for preventing the worst effects of climate change. The stupidity and anti science on this thread just found rock bottom.

Are you happy to pay everyone’s mortgage and bills whilst the parents take time off work to educate their children, until their age group get vaccinated and what about the parents who don’t agree to their young children receiving an experimental vaccine?

That's what a lot of this debate boils down to actually - the terrible pressures caused by the need we all have to work longer and longer hours in lower wage jobs to earn some living space in an overpopulated country run to serve the hereditary rich.

If we were in the same conditions as the 60s, with plenty of work available to walk into, much lower pressure, and housing for the taking, would people be more reluctant to force health risks on to others?

What are these magic safety precautions of which you speak???!!!

I'm talking about the safety precautions you're referencing re RTAs.

They don't prevent death. Or serious injury.

Our children are probably much more at risk on the roads than from covid. But humans are shit at assessing risk and can't process that. You're proving that point with every post.

Humans rely on instinct, and it shouldn’t be ignored. Relying on “numbers and probability” is itself a foolish thing to do. We are human and our emotions play a key part in who we are.

Actually yes, all of this is somewhat true.

However it's complicated by the fact that covid is the disease of mass data. Which has been used to excellent effect by the behavioural scientists who knew that they had to stir up as much fear as possible to drive compliance.

How would we feel about other causes of death if we were exposed to daily tallies of diagnoses, hospitalisations and deaths?

I am torn really on this.

I think its awful that you have to work with that and the kids have to be in.

However, given that there has more or less been a decision that kids under 12 aren't going to be vaccinated any time soon and covid isn't affecting them that much you've got something of a problem with a large unvaccinated population in close proximatity and Delta.

Once Delta gets into an unvaccinated population, then you can't stop it. Even covid zero NZ has pretty much come to this conclusion.

It means that until covid has passed through that population, its going to be a problem and be vulnerable to a mass outbreak.

The sibling rule, where there is one who has tested positive but other householders are expected to still attend school after a PCR is daft, because of the delay between exposure and testing positive. There is a gap where kids can be in school after a negative test but still be carrying it and will test positive later thus exposing others in the process.

HOWEVER given what policy currently is, I think I'd want it to spread through a school like wildfire right now for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, if you don't, you can be somewhat prolonging the problem given the nature of delta and the unvaccinated. If its a choice between them more or less all off at the same time, or mitigation and 10 off now, 10 off in Nov and 10 off in Dec I'm not sure thats any better from the persceptive of being a teacher - if anything its worse.

Plus I do think the immunity waning issue is going to start becoming a real issue in about 5 to 6 weeks time especially when people start to realise that if they are eligible for a booster they aren't going to get it when they are supposed to and when they need it.

In this respect, if I were a teacher eligible for a booster in the coming months I'd want all the kids having covid now whilst my vaccine immunity remained higher and the immunity of the kids parents and grandparents is as high as possible.

I think I would be a lot more concerned by covid cases at school in mid to late November and after that.

There's currently a big outbreak going on at DS's school and it really does worry me and I don't like it and don't want it. But at the same time, I'm hoping that its going to blow through here quickly and be more contained by the adult population having high immunity. When vaccine breakthrough gets higher, outbreaks are going to spill more into the wider community and thats where it bothers me.

Yes, its far from ideal, but I'm also trying to think pragmatically too. There is a limit to how long massive school outbreaks of this nature are going to continue. Once kids have some immunity, outbreaks shouldn't spread to quite the same degree in the same way.

I don't know that closing the schools solves the problem if you still have 2/3 or more of the school who have no immunity at all. You just set yourself up for multiple closures for the next time cos you still have 2/3 who haven't had it yet.

Give it six weeks, I may well be leaning heavily towards closures for the same reasons though, because of wider community spread and waning immunity in older age groups, but I'm not at this point yet.

I do think it wise to seriously consider who your kids are mixing with at this point outside their own age group - be aware as much as you can about who around you that you socialise with a lot - is due a booster and when...

We are starting to close in to 1000 hospital admissions a day, so I think we will see some reintroduction of restrictions soon anyway. There is an increasing nervousness coming in...

...the booster (and third normal jab) programmes being behind where they should be. I don't think the penny is dropping properly on this. The last estimate is that they won't get everyone due it, before the end of January. I think those at the back of the queue for their booster, may have some difficult decisions to make if they don't get one in time for Christmas.

December worries me particularly for this year because of the social expectation to mix indoors for various pre-christmas events even before you get to the big event itself.

I personally will be mask wearing in crowds (indoors and out), avoiding too much socialising indoors and staying away from people I know who could be at risk. I don't think this Christmas is necessarily the one to be making up for last year's 'Lost Christmas'.

I'm worried. But not necessarily by outbreaks in schools in October. They may, ironically, mean there is less of an issue later in the year.

(And no I'm not a let it rip person - I'm thinking pragmatically in terms of where we are in the outbreak and where immunity levels are at and where they are heading and what possible scenarios there are now for us. I think another big lockdown would be catastrophic in its own right at this stage. They really need to get the hell on with those vaccines and its not happening yet. The situation with boosters should have been forseen and we should be on the ball with rollout and I worry that we aren't).

I'm certainly not happy. Rock. Hard Place.

I am dreading late December / early January.