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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think GPs should do their job

579 replies

Wotnokids · 14/10/2021 06:35

Just heard the news that £250million is to be made available to GPs to 'increase the amount of face to face appointments'. AIBU to think this is just extra cash for doing their job?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 13:25

@politics4me

Salaries £150,000 pa. for a full time partner. I know of a practice getting this in Outer London. Compared to other professions such as Engineering, of which I have experience it is extremely good. If we the taxpayers (which includes doctors) pay over this much then the Practice employs temps and pays them £80,000 for similar hours. It means that the Partners are pocketing a share of the difference,£70k per Dr. over their own salary of £150k. If my maths is wrong please explain it to me.
For a start, as I explained above, you have to knock off 22% from a partner’s drawings to get the equivalent of a salary, so the partner is earning the equivalent of a 117k salary. And it’s just one person, working in an area where salaries are much higher than the U.K. average.

In many practices, partners earn less per hour than salaried (employee) GPs. I’m a salaried GP myself, with absolutely no desire to become a partner - more work, more shit, no more pay - probably less in real terms.

MolyHolyGuacamole · 14/10/2021 13:27

[quote DreamingofTimbuktu]@brittleheadgirl - important though your role is you aren’t making life or death decisions. Most graduates could theoretically retrain as a teacher in 2 years, becoming a GP would take closer to a decade. I am not saying “random” graduate would be able to teach but it’s a less specialist role than a doctor.[/quote]
Which is why it's ridiculous that they haven't been back to face-to-face yet. So many things going missed because they can only chat on the phone 🙄

LakieLady · 14/10/2021 13:33

If the NHS isn't going to be funded and managed properly, then we need to adjust expectations, but as it is they're just increasing

I don't think it's "expectations" that are increasing, but need, and funding has not kept pace with the healthcare needs of an increasingly elderly, and poor, population.

I had a partial knee replacement a week ago. I need an appointment with a GP practice for a "wound review" and to have the clips removed. I am staying with friends while I recover, because I wouldn't be able to manage alone at home, so have tried to get local practices to accept a temporary registration and make an appointment with a nurse to do the necessary. Several practices in this large town in the SE are full, none of the others can give me a nurse appointment within 3 weeks.

This is not an "expectation", it's a need. And it would appear it's a need that can't be met in a timely fashion. What's the point in carrying out surgery when the necessary aftercare is inaccessible?

Meanwhile, nurses are leaving the NHS in droves because of the hours, the pressure, the pay and the lack of respect in the way they are treated.

LimitIsUp · 14/10/2021 13:34

@brittleheadgirl

My job is 'endlessly exhausting' I'm an early years teacher, in a large, very diverse inner city school. I'm paid at least, half maybe a third what a gp earns. The public are tired of gps still not returning to 'normal' and still not offering face to face appointments. I'm not surprised that people are angry. I like many have worked face to face throughout the pandemic and for a large part of it I was unvaccinated too.
And for this reason lots of teachers are leaving the profession, no?
HorsesHoundsandHills · 14/10/2021 13:38

As I previously stated, the reason we have not been seeing as many F2F is because of NHS England guidance stating that we have to maintain social distancing on practice premises, so we cannot fill the waiting room. At the same time as we have been under this restriction, the government have been happily lying about 'forcing GPs to see patients F2F', so that they can blame us for the lack of GPs.

I much prefer seeing patients F2F, I find it safer, easier, and more pleasant. I will very happily go back to seeing all my appointments F2F, but I don't think it will increase the availability of appointments!

LimitIsUp · 14/10/2021 13:39

@LunaTheCat

I am a GP. I get to work at 8 am and leave usually about 8pm. I see 30 people a day and do about 3-4 hrs paperwork. I have good bladder control as I have learnt to hold on. I have a 20 minute break for lunch. I am utterly, utterly exhausted. I love my patients, I consider my job an honour. I couldn’t work any harder if I wanted to.
Thank you for your continuing commitment & dedication
LimitIsUp · 14/10/2021 13:54

@HorsesHoundsandHills

I'm a GP, and a long term mumsnetter. I have read these threads with increasing dismay over the past few weeks.

Firstly, £100,000 average pay is for a FT GP Partner, not the part-time, mostly salaried GPs who are working '3.5 days per week'.

A newly qualified salaried GP will take home around £55,000 per year FTE, rising with experience and/or difficulty of job to a max £88,000 FTE on the BMA salary scale. In hard to recruit areas with particularly brutal workloads, that has risen to £90,000 per year FTE for an experienced salaried GP.

GP Partners make more money (the average is around £100,000, but can be much higher than that in well-off areas. In deprived areas some partners are making less than salaried GPs!), but they also have to fit in the actual running of the business on top of the clinical workload, they have to respond to all of the diktats that come down every year from the government and NHS England, and they are personally financially liable if the business loses money or goes bust. It's an absolute mugs game. They have all of the risk of running a small/medium sized business, with none of the freedom to innovate or decide what services to offer. In addition, the way the funding works actively penalises practices with hard-to-reach populations, because the work of chasing patients for things like health checks/ annual chronic disease reviews/ cervical screening increases massively, and no allowance is made for this. Hence the disparity in GP numbers between more and less deprived areas.

I have been a qualified GP for 16 years, and earn £38,000 for my 16 hrs and 40 mins (4 sessions) per week of paid salaried clinical work. I do around 8 hours of 'unpaid overtime' every week, as I work approximately 12 hours per day on my two clinical days. I make over 150 clinical decisions per day, including 32 F2F/ telephone appointments, 1-2 home visits, 40-50 abnormal test results, 15-20 tasks (sick note extension requests, DWP/DVLA forms and admin queries, responses to e-consultations), 50-60 prescription requests, and actioning 4-6 letters from hospital consultants. In addition we have a range of requests for taxi medicals, HGV medicals, adoption medicals, insurance forms etc, which have to be fitted in.

We have not been able to hire enough GPs for many years, so we have several Advanced Practitioners who are fabulous, but this means that the cases that the GPs see are the most complex, so it's far from straightforward decision making. We are always aware that we can miss things and cause harm. Bear in mind that '3.5 days per week' translates to around 42 hours of actual clinical work.

When I'm not working clinically, I also have a 5 sessions academic job, teaching undergraduate medical students and doing research to improve medical education. This also has a lot of 'unpaid overtime' involved, but is much more flexible and less intense than clinical practice. I also have a school aged child, a DH who is a full time ITU/Anaesthetic Consultant, and ageing parents/MIL who need increasing support. GPs are humans too.

The main limitation to increasing F2F consultation in our surgery (we're currently at around 55%, so slightly below the national average of 58%), is that social distancing has still been required in clinical environments and, like most surgeries, our waiting room is too small for this. The lifting of this requirement announced today will allow us to go to our preferred option of offering patients the choice of F2F or telephone. It still won't get us more GPs. The amount of money 'for locums' sounds like a lot, but divide it between all the surgeries in England and then consider that the worsening lack of GPs has driven up locum rates to around £800 per day, and you'll see that it won't go far. The sick notes and DVLA requests are a tiny part of our workload and will make little difference.

Almost all of my GP friends have reduced our clinical hours over the past few years, rather than burn out completely and leave the profession. I will be reducing my clinical hours again at the end of this month, for a while at least. I have burned out previously trying to keep a struggling small practice going (I eventually had to leave and the practice closed), and have no intention of going down that dark road again.

Most of the 'part-time' GPs are women with young children who are not the primary breadwinner, but most 'full-time' GPs mix their clinical sessions with either teaching or management roles, as consulting is incredibly intense, and extremely hard to do well for 8 sessions per week.

These past two years have been brutal, the massive delays for hospital appointments and treatment has caused a knock on effect, as more unwell people keep coming back to their GPs in desperation when there's nothing further we can do and they were referred on months ago. There is a massive need for mental health support brought on by the pandemic, and mental health services are on their knees, so again we are supporting people. A good 80% of my appointments are patients with severe mental distress at the moment, and these appointments take far more than the 10 minutes we are given.

We and our staff are bearing the brunt of public anger and are helpless to respond, hog-tied by lack of clinicians, secondary care delays, and NHS England 'guidance'. The turnover in admin staff is massive because it's a thankless job and the abuse they take is horrific. It's increasingly dangerous, a GP in Manchester was recently assaulted and has a severe head injury, with four of their staff also sustaining lacerations in the assault by a disgruntled patient. We have plenty of volatile patients, it would not at all surprise me if something similar were to happen at my practice. The inexperienced new admin staff needing more support, and stressed GPs reducing hours in order to cope, is causing a downward spiral where there is ever more workload for fewer GPs. Those of us who are left are struggling, and the current anger being directed towards us by the press will be the straw that breaks some of the remaining camels' backs.

I know people are struggling to access their GPs, and I am truly sorry for that. My colleagues and I would love to have the support and funding to be able to offer a good service, after all, we all went into this speciality because we enjoy seeing patients and helping people. We are here, working as hard as we can, and it's intensely frustrating to know that we have multiple staff answering the phones constantly from 8am-6pm every day and it's still not enough. People can queue on our lines for hours due to sheer demand. It's frightening for us too, the thought of missing an unwell child or a cancer because of not being able to fit people in keeps many of us awake at night. Look up 'moral injury' - that it what your GPs and their staff are experiencing on a daily basis, and it is breaking us.

The GPs I know that have left or retired early have not done so lightly, but because they simply couldn't take any more stress. Please don't blame us for systemic problems that have been worsening for over a decade, despite us telling the government over and over again that this crisis point was coming, and have been thrown into sharp relief by the pandemic pressures.

It's quite sobering that GPs get paid (quite a bit) less then my dh, who granted, works long hours but gives financial advice. Sure, important but not on the same scale as life / death & health concerns
politics4me · 14/10/2021 13:57

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow, Thank you. Sorry I missed the post about the reduction.
I would be happier if my practice used Zoom so I could show rather than describe.
It would also be helpful to me to be able to email my practice and attach a pic. The rest of the world has been doing this for 20 years over many industries.

luckylavender · 14/10/2021 13:59

@Wotnokids - it's not additional money. It's what they get every winter.

Eve · 14/10/2021 14:00

Is it a coincidence that the OP is a new poster today posting controversial subjects on the same day the GP issue is on the daily mail & BBC front page.

Maverickess · 14/10/2021 14:04

@LakieLady

If the NHS isn't going to be funded and managed properly, then we need to adjust expectations, but as it is they're just increasing

I don't think it's "expectations" that are increasing, but need, and funding has not kept pace with the healthcare needs of an increasingly elderly, and poor, population.

I had a partial knee replacement a week ago. I need an appointment with a GP practice for a "wound review" and to have the clips removed. I am staying with friends while I recover, because I wouldn't be able to manage alone at home, so have tried to get local practices to accept a temporary registration and make an appointment with a nurse to do the necessary. Several practices in this large town in the SE are full, none of the others can give me a nurse appointment within 3 weeks.

This is not an "expectation", it's a need. And it would appear it's a need that can't be met in a timely fashion. What's the point in carrying out surgery when the necessary aftercare is inaccessible?

Meanwhile, nurses are leaving the NHS in droves because of the hours, the pressure, the pay and the lack of respect in the way they are treated.

I meant expectations in respect of needs being met. If the NHS isn't going to be funded and managed properly, and that leads to shortages we can't expect needs to be met, demand even, it's just not going to happen, no matter how much the press and people point the finger at GPs. We can collectively say that's unacceptable until the cows come home (I think it is unacceptable) but until funding, and management of that funding improves, or demand drops, nothing will change. I don't mean we should just accept it either, but we (and the press) should be asking for change from those who can, not from those who can't and expecting that it'll change.

Hope you get your knee sorted.

chopc · 14/10/2021 14:17

@Wotnokids please tell me where you can work as a GP 3.5 days a week and earn 100K? And also what hours do you mean by a day?

nomoneytreehere · 14/10/2021 14:20

My gp practice is great. The receptionists are a bit painful but the doctors are excellent and my whole family has been seen quickly and we have had face to face where needed.

People do know that an average is just a mean and the vast majority of gp's aren't earning £100k a year. The practice heads take all the money!! Most gp's I know can't afford private school fees even when they are 2 doctor households unless they have other family money or property interests. I think we should pay our doctors more if anything.

To put it into context newly qualified (often around 25) commercial lawyers (similar academic achievement profile) are on around £60k outside of London and £100k plus in London.

More doctors are needed. We need to pay for that and encourage people with the right aptitude into our health service. Not load it all onto our existing ones and expect them to never make mistakes.

More money into social services and social care would also free up a lot of gp time. When my parents were elderly their gp spent hours with them regarding things that really were the social workers responsibility (but they never answered the phone). When my mum was dying the gp came out regularly and enabled her to have a dignified death at home.

ChargingBuck · 14/10/2021 14:23

You heard wrong then OP.
Your knee-jerk assumption that the money is going into GP's pockets is ludicrous. It's there to pay for more shifts & more locums, so that there are more appointments available.

As a cursory investigation would have shown you -

"The new winter access fund will pay for locum, or self-employed GPs, to work more shifts in GP surgeries. It will also be used to fund appointments with non-medical staff such as physiotherapists and podiatrists and advanced nurse practitioners.

The aim to increase the number of same-day appointments for patients to head off growing anger over the difficulties patients are experiencing in getting a GP slot."

TravelLost · 14/10/2021 14:27

I have to say I’m wondering if all the people moaning at GP for being too well paid and therefire shouod work themselves to the ground etc…

Have ever had the same sort of discourse about their MP.

You know the ones who are supposed to represent the but don’t bother to turn up for votes
The ones who are supposed to represent their constitution but never go there (Mr Sunak?)
The ones who are supposed to vote to support their constituency but vote like the party told them to

And all of them earning £80k per year PLUS expenses.

I don’t know. I’ve never seen as much scrutiny about them. But they ARE the ones who are directing the country… so have a pretty big responsibility when it comes to the health the nation (like with the budget, benefits, laws etc etc).

DotBall · 14/10/2021 14:30

@Eve

Let’s whip up the rhetoric against GPs so they are blamed & not years of cuts and running down services.

If it’s a daily mail headline blaming someone else then it’s definitely the Government’s fault.

This is so true.

Lazy teacher-bashing has happened for years, when those in the job know the realities.

Now it’s the turn of the GPs.

As someone else said up thread, if the job was so easy there would be loads of new doctors signing up for the training.

I for one have had exemplary care throughout the pandemic, including F2F nurse appointments, e-consults twice followed up that required treatment but not needing to attend the surgery and one that did (resulting in hosp admittance via GP referral) and an urgent appointment that is being dealt with tomorrow.

I’m not just ‘lucky’ with my GP practice as it’s under the cosh like they all are, but I am realistic, grateful and a decent human being who understands the world isn’t just about me.

Goldi321 · 14/10/2021 14:32

Can’t wait to go back to F2F. My days are currently spent trying 3,4,5 times to try to ring someone after summarising their notes and making sure I know what meds etc they are on. Then after all that having to move on to the next pt.
I’ve had patients tell the receptionists for me to call between 3 and 3.30pm and the still not answer. I’ve spoken to people on holiday, driving, about to go out for lunch to couldn’t possibly come down to the practice when I offer to see them F2F that day.
Give me a waiting room of people who have made the commitment to see their GP any day.I think everyone forgets the days where you had to sit for an hour or so in a room full of coughing people to see your GP.

borntobequiet · 14/10/2021 14:35

Dont ignore the majority and allow a tiny minority to dicate your processes

It’s the minority who because of their age, disability or social circumstance who are most in need of accessible primary care, though.

randomsabreuse · 14/10/2021 14:52

Had a good experience today. DD6 on day 5 of cough/ fever, PCR negative. Doing the classic child thing of flipping from CRAZY to flat so phoned up at lunchtime after temp up again, seen face to face by nurse after triage and now has an abx prescription as some hint of crackles on lungs...

TravelLost · 14/10/2021 14:53

@borntobequiet

Dont ignore the majority and allow a tiny minority to dicate your processes

It’s the minority who because of their age, disability or social circumstance who are most in need of accessible primary care, though.

So have a go at NHS ENGLAND rather than the GP who don’t decide the rules.
TravelLost · 14/10/2021 14:56

Tbf @Goldi321, I have never spent that long waiting at my surgery.
And I had an appointment with a set time, not a vague ‘will ring you back today’.

I personally have put off ringing the surgery because when I’m at work and I can’t take any phone call (anymore than you would). So actually trying to call the surgery isn’t even worth doing.

borntobequiet · 14/10/2021 15:01

So have a go at NHS ENGLAND rather than the GP who don’t decide the rules.

Uh?

Goldi321 · 14/10/2021 15:08

@TravelLost I wish I could provide care like that. I’d love to be able to give people a time but that’s not what my surgery does. I will always try, and have gone above and beyond to try to get hold of people who I know struggle to get breaks at work, to cal at a time that suits the patient if I am told.
I do worry that people have forgotten what it used to be like when everyone saw the GP F2F. I went to my GP yesterday for a vaccination and wouldn’t have felt comfortable in a packed waiting room.
I’m pregnant so at 28 weeks will not be allowed to see people F2F to protect me and the baby as the risk is too great. I can carry on working helping patients over the phone, I wouldn’t have been able to do this historically. Other dr friends are being taken off of work altogether as they can’t work remotely and are doing audit work etc.

Whycangirlsbesonasty · 14/10/2021 15:26

We need more GPs so we need to train more GPs, but we can’t just ignore the part time working problem. Medical places at UK universities are limited and over subscribed. As it costs the UK government £250k to train a GP is it so inappropriate to ask people given undergrad places to train as doctors to work a full week? If every GP worked a full week, would it it not be less stressful for all of them?

PussGirl · 14/10/2021 15:29

A lot of GPs now work "part time" and why on earth not? They have lives too outside medicine.

Three and a half days for a GP these days is around 40 hours a week...