To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

People always instinctively think that air pollution is an outdoor problem. I've also seen lots of people on MN say that they wouldn't have their child in a cycle trailer because of car exhausts, even though you're actually breathing in more fumes in the car than you are next to it. People think cars and houses are little hermetically sealed bubbles that don't let this stuff in but they're not - but they do slow down its dispersal.

@mustlovegin

House coal sales are being banned from May 2023

What if you want a barbacue?

That's charcoal, different thing. As is anthracite, which is what a lot of solid fuel reliant houses use now, it's smokeless.

What if you want a barbacue?

🤦‍♀️

Mine is a stove I use coke and wood but only if I'm bloody froze.

Ever heard of a wood pellet stove? They burn the pieces of wood that are otherwise wasted from using in construction or paper making-we had two in the house we lived in a few years back-much cheaper than electric heat. Made an older house with high cathedral ceilings warm in blizzards and everyday heat needs.

I’d be a lot more inclined to vote on this one if the phrasing of the options weren’t so loaded.

We previously lived in a single skin 1930s standard semi. Had double glazing & loft insulation. You could not for the love of you get that place warm. You just couldn't.

And I am not someone who does 'warm' - I work outside in the cold all weathers, and I had just come out of student accommodation so my levels for cold/heat are pretty generous - so the house was certainly not overheated.

So we got a log burner, and my god the issue was instantly solved!Its just a different type of heat. Its like it warms the actual building, the bricks, its nothing like a radiator.

After the house was warmed up and had a residual heat the radiators could keep on top of it. My gas bill was triple UK average in the first year and below average after the log burner.

And we only used it on very cold evenings. About 5-10 times a year in winter depending on the year.

So I am pro log burners.

I have just moved into a 2000ft single skin renovation project and first on the list is central heating and log burners. From previous experience I know there is no point trying to heat this house with central heating alone until its warm and 'dry' because humidity lowers temperatures.

So YABU

Rather than vilifying users in false binary questions, more needs to be done to educate stove owners on how to burn more responsibly and safely - like this, in New Zealand: www.warmercheaper.co.nz/

With the price of gas so utterly ridiculous, there's gonna be a lot more people using their stoves this year.

@CauliflowerBalti

Rather than vilifying users in false binary questions, more needs to be done to educate stove owners on how to burn more responsibly and safely - like this, in New Zealand: www.warmercheaper.co.nz/

With the price of gas so utterly ridiculous, there's gonna be a lot more people using their stoves this year.

You've missed the point that in any built up area there is more or less safe, but no 'safe' level.

If we followed this advice, we'd be focussing on advising smokers with kids to just smoke outside the back door as opposed to actually stopping.

The vast majority of urban stove and fire earners are on middle to high incomes. It's ridiculous they're even on sale or allowed to be installed inside major cities.

It's daft to complain about wood burners given that wood is a natural and renewable fuel. As long as the place it comes from plants more trees than they cut down then it's fine. Fuel doesn't come much more natural and sustainable than wood - it literally grows on trees.

I like you because you took the piss out of the “very rural” phrasing so commonly used on MN!

If you don't own a car, YANBU; otherwise YABU - look to your own behaviour first

Did you read any comments? It's not about renewable (although actually, chopping down trees releases a lot of carbon, it's not sustainable in the way that natural growth and death it), it's about particulates in cities.

@Cleverdick21

If you don't own a car, YANBU; otherwise YABU - look to your own behaviour first

It's worse than a car, on a particulate level. It's also totally unnecessary for the vast majority of city dwellers, who almost all have central heating also and the vast majority of whom are not poor. I don't have a car, but don't judge those who do need them in the city, because buses don't work for everyone. Using a fire in London for nostalgia value, or for a fancy pizza oven, is pretty unforgivable, however.

If you're looking for a comparison, it's more like a neighbour who smokes a pack or 5 of cigarettes next to their kids, then proceeds to go and smoke some more in the neighbours' living rooms too.

@HarrietsChariot

It's daft to complain about wood burners given that wood is a natural and renewable fuel. As long as the place it comes from plants more trees than they cut down then it's fine. Fuel doesn't come much more natural and sustainable than wood - it literally grows on trees.

It’s natural, sustainable and very eco-friendly.

It’s also horrible for your respiratory health.

Both can be true 😉

Town or otherwise, it's total shit environmentally.

Did you read any comments?

Did you read any posts on sustainable wood pellets?

@KeflavikAirport

It's about particulates and local air pollution causing significant health problems NOT sustainability.

Wood pellets are slightly better than logs but only in the same way low tar cigarettes are slightly better than high tar cigarettes. They still release damaging levels of PM2.5 particulates linked to asthma, cardiac arrest, miscarriage and dementia.

You can find links to various bits of research here:
woodsmokepollution.org/phone/pellet-stoves.html

To quote:
Pellet stoves are promoted as a cleaner burning option. However, while it is true they emit fewer particulates than a log-burning stove, they are still significantly more polluting than a non-wood-burning form of heat. A pellet stove can emit (PDF) 15 times more PM2.5 particulate pollution than oil heating, and up to 1800 times that of gas

@KeflavikAirport

Did you read any comments?

Did you read any posts on sustainable wood pellets?

What, like the fact that they still emit 15 times more particulates than oil heating and 1800 times that of gas?

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1352231012004657

It’s also horrible for your respiratory health.

And so is a damp wet house. I would assume in the short term its more likely to cause issues to the home dweller than particulates - which to me seems more like a long term cumulative problem.

But correct me if I am wrong.

I was not responding on particulates (though urban heating uses sophisticated filters) but on the sustainability of wood sources.

@LemonSwan

I can't find any scientific studies on the relative damage of cold Vs particulates but certainly serious cold can kill you very rapidly via hypothermia. I definitely would not advise that.

But in London or the major cities - which this the question is about - is unable to access other forms of heat. Wood burning stove owners in Islington or Clifton or Edgbaston will not freeze if their usage is banned.

Wood burning stoves in London and other cities are a lifestyle accessory that damages the health of their owners and their neighbours.

@KeflavikAirport

The entire point of the study cited at the beginning is that the highest spec "eco stoves" still produce dangerously high levels of particulates even with their "sophisticated filters". There is no safe wood burning, not with pellets, not with eco stoves etc.

The sustainability issue is entirely different. They can be "sustainable" in terms of carbon, (although there is much debate on this) and yet also be highly polluting and damaging for anyone living in a house burning them and their neighbours.

How long does it take for the damage to health to become apparent?

It's completely unacceptable in a built up area. People have asthma ffs. My other moan is, why do people fire them up when it's not even cold? We have to shut our windows at the time of year to keep the smoke out. But we like the cool fresh air in the house. I hate being polite when friends tell me of their plans to buy one or how nice owning one is. Grrrrrr.