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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?

110 replies

SinoohXaenaHide · 08/10/2021 14:52

So, market forces and political currents over many decades seem to have fixed the amount that the taxpayer is willing to pay per year per child in state education as around £7k per year (£7,100 to be precise according to this article)

And in a well-run school with willing and able pupils, that amount of money is enough to provide a fairly decent quality of education. Obviously with more money a school could do more, but that would cost more tax, and this seems to be the level of balance between tax and education quality that we corporately as a population will accept.

In the UK the distribution of individual income means that about 20% of individual earners have more than twice the median disposable income. It's not at all surprising that some more well-off families wish to purchase a different education than that which is provided by taxpayers. About 7% of children are educated privately. In a free society the freedom to choose to educate ones children outside the state system is important and I don't think anyone is saying that it should be illegal to spend ones spare income on education if one chooses, only that this shouldn't be subsidised by the tax payer.

The above linked article says that Labour will abolish the tax advantages of private schools and use the money to fund state schools. We've had thousands of threads which go over and over how the practicalities of achieving that would be complicated (it would require a rebuilding of charity law from the ground up. Let's not get into that again though) but setting that aside, you are only talking about creaming an extra 20% of what is spent on 7% of pupils - although the rocketing of school fees might drop that to only 6% as a lot of self-funders can only just afford the fees as it is - and then you spread that among the 94% of pupils in state education. I've done the maths and that works out as less than £100 extra per pupil per year in state education - that's not going to make much difference.

To actually level up state education to the kind of quality that would begin to make private education obsolete because so many fewer feel the need to opt out of it, would take an injection of income into schools of more like £3,000 per year per pupil. That would be what was needed to get class sizes and facilities to a level that is more similar to the private sector. That would require about £30 billion pounds more per year into the education budget - there are about 30 million tax payers in the UK so that would require each tax payer to pay about £1000 per year more tax. Or if you made it progressive, that would be an extra £625 per tax payer for basic rate, £1,875 per year (3 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the higher rate and £5,625 per year (9 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the highest rate. This would raise the required £30 billion per year.

For comparison, the changes to National Insurance coming in next year to fund social care are expected to raise £12 billion - barely a third of that. So the kind of tax rise required is phenomenal.

Do we as a population want to see the kinds of tax rises that would be needed to actually level up our childrens education? Could a political party ever be voted in on a policy of tax rises of that magnitude in exchange for creating a state education sector that is good enough to make private schools obsolete?

Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?
OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 08/10/2021 14:55

Well it would be a nice start if the government would offer a fair education to ALL children. As it is it does not. Disabled, Autistic and SEN children do not receive a fair education and families are left to pick up the pieces due to the lack of specialist provisions and the fact that Local Authorities actively seek to deny provision to children who cannot go to mainstream schools.

Moonlaserbearwolf · 08/10/2021 15:00

That’s really interesting! Thanks for explaining the figures. I imagine most people (including me) had no idea what the impact of abolishing charity status for private schools would be. Sadly, assuming your numbers are right, not a huge impact.

It would be amazing to level up the system by finding £3k per pupil to increase the staff:pupil ratio in schools. Of course we’d then have to suddenly find a lot more teachers from somewhere. But, I wonder how many teachers who have left the profession in recent years would be tempted back if class sizes were smaller?

Ionlydomassiveones · 08/10/2021 15:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Brindle88 · 08/10/2021 15:20

It’s that old dilemma of people wanting services but not wanting to be the ones to pay the tax.

ftw163532 · 08/10/2021 15:22

I would be perfectly happy to pay more tax in exchange for decent public services instead of the shitshow we currently have.

RedMarauder · 08/10/2021 15:25

But, I wonder how many teachers who have left the profession in recent years would be tempted back if class sizes were smaller?

If you know any teachers in rl ask they why they left teaching. Absolutely no-one I know who was a teacher left because of class sizes.

BTW I went to two state schools where the parents funded raised to provide the schools with facilities and to keep them running. One was in a working class area the other was in a more diverse social area. Now they are both in MC areas.

Moonlaserbearwolf · 08/10/2021 15:40

@RedMarauder

But, I wonder how many teachers who have left the profession in recent years would be tempted back if class sizes were smaller?

If you know any teachers in rl ask they why they left teaching. Absolutely no-one I know who was a teacher left because of class sizes.

BTW I went to two state schools where the parents funded raised to provide the schools with facilities and to keep them running. One was in a working class area the other was in a more diverse social area. Now they are both in MC areas.

I am a teacher and I know several people who did! We are allowed to have different opinions you know!
AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 15:47

You assume that any additional funding for state schools would be split equally between all children in the state sector. I agree that this wouldn't go very far.

However, if you decided to concentrate that funding on those pupils who are currently at the greatest disadvantage - either because of their socio-economic circumstances, family circumstances or disability etc - then you could potentially make a significant difference to their life chances.

My dd has done very well in the state sector and does not need any additional resource to be able to compete with her privately educated counterparts. There are many other kids like her. However, those who are most disadvantaged would benefit. I would like to see them get those opportunities.

Gardenlass · 08/10/2021 15:55

The assumption is that all children are equally intelligent and will benefit from a good education. Sadly that is not the case. If a child has SEN, then their education needs to be tailored to their needs, and mainstream school is not the best place to do this.
Even allowing for no special needs, much success in education involves factors other than the school setting. Parental support and involvement is the main one. If parents are unable or unwilling to offer support, then only an extremely bright child will succeed, and most will leave school without the necessary qualifications for further education.

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 16:02

@Gardenlass, some children with SEN function very well in mainstream schools. Others need more specialist provision. Both options need to be adequately funded.

And yes, parental support and involvement makes a huge difference. Arguably, this is why private schools do so well, rather than the actual spend per pupil. Some kids do not have the advantage of having engaged and supportive parents from birth, for a whole raft of reasons. I agree that it is very difficult to fully compensate for that disadvantage, but we should at least do what we can to improve their life chances. You sound like you think we should just give up on most of them, but I'm sure that's not what you actually mean?!

workwoes123 · 08/10/2021 16:13

Q1. Do you mean equality of outcome or equality of provision or equality of opportunity?

  1. No, I don't think 'we' do actually want equality. All human societies tend towards the creation and maintenance of an 'elite' and that has been observed over and over and over again, across history and geography. If private schools are reduced or removed from the system in the UK, the 'elite' will find other ways to recreate itself, and those currently outside the elite will continue to aspire to join it. Thats human nature.
Kite22 · 08/10/2021 16:13

If I had millions more ££ to spend on Education though, I wouldn't spend if "per head". I would spend it to provide services for the children that just can't access appropriate education.

There are nowhere near enough special school places in our LA for the children with massively significant needs, whose parents want that provision. These dc end up out of school, or shoved into mainstream classes who are not equipped to cope. Then of course, the children in mainstream school who could cope with additional support, get nowhere near enough support. Then there is lack of mental health support, lack of services such as Speech and language or occupational therapy, lack of behavioural support, pastoral support, family support, and social care, which means so many thousands of teacher hours get sucked in to all those roles and that not only impacts on teachers leaving the profession, but it means there are far fewer teacher hours available to the pupils who want to learn and who are able to come to school ready to learn.
Even if you are mistakenly thinking that it is quite a small number of children who need lots of additional support, the time being spent by all school staff dealing with those who struggle to access mainstream provision, really impacts on all school pupils.

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 16:15

Absolutely @Kite22

sst1234 · 08/10/2021 16:18

There will never be equality of education as long as feral children with feckless parents are disrupting the education of the majority who want to learn. The problem in any school is not the teachers or the curriculum, it’s the wasted resources on controlling poor behaviour and discipline. There is thread after thread on this very forum about this issue.

Elephantsparade · 08/10/2021 16:23

Nobody would vote to increase spending by that much. The reality is for a huge section of society state education is 'good enough'. If i only had my eldest child and didnt work in a school, my opinion would be that the education he had has been good and he has thrived so why spend more? My work though shows me how precarious it all is

My other son has SEN and its a system in crisis so I actually do think a pot that equated £100 a head but targeted at specific groups such as SEN or PP would make a huge difference. Eg the school he went to that failed him as they didnt understand autism could have covered an extra floating TA and whole school training just from the £100 a head.

Phineyj · 08/10/2021 16:24

I don't have any solutions but I just wanted to say that as an Economics teacher, I thought your analysis was very good Grin.

Sockwomble · 08/10/2021 16:26

"The assumption is that all children are equally intelligent and will benefit from a good education."

So which children don't deserve a good education? Why do they deserve a poor one?

FrazzledY9Parent · 08/10/2021 16:30

"All human societies tend towards the creation and maintenance of an 'elite' and that has been observed over and over and over again, across history and geography."

This is actually not true, hunter-gatherer societies go to great lengths to avoid and hinder the emergence of elites. You may well be right about agricultural-industrial societies (i.e. where property plays a role), but I don't think it's human nature.

Ibelieveinghosts · 08/10/2021 16:30

Education, like society is never going to be levelled up. Formal education rewards certain attributes, mainly being able to grasp concepts, apply them in a certain way and play the game/do the test at the end. The more natural intelligence (often inherited), better behaved and the more parental support you have the better you will generally do in this system. Typically these things are more common in higher earning families who will generally tend to live in certain areas and attend certain schools. A small amount of money gained from an ideologically motivated attack on one sector is not going to solve this.
To truly level up education we need to be addressing a lot of the priorities of wider society, ensure parents are better engaged inc providing support for parents who struggle to support their children.

Of course you are always going to get outliers but whilst society is unequal (which in a hierarchical based species like humans is inevitable) education will always remain unequal.

Gardenlass · 08/10/2021 16:32

And yes, parental support and involvement makes a huge difference. Arguably, this is why private schools do so well, rather than the actual spend per pupil. Some kids do not have the advantage of having engaged and supportive parents from birth, for a whole raft of reasons. I agree that it is very difficult to fully compensate for that disadvantage, but we should at least do what we can to improve their life chances. You sound like you think we should just give up on most of them, but I'm sure that's not what you actually mean?!
No, I'm not suggesting giving up on children. Merely pointing out that with the best will in the world, superb teaching, small class sizes etc, there will always be children who won't be able to take advantage of these opportunities. It depends on what level of attainment is being aimed for. For every child to be literate and numerate enough to function properly, yes, this is achievable. For every child to gain A levels, not achievable even with every opportunity. The whole system needs overhauling, to give each child the best chance of achieving what they are capable of.
For instance, when it is obvious that a child is not academic, schools should provide alternative programmes such as training in hairdressing, electrical engineering, plumbing, beauty, cookery, agriculture etc. This should be available from a younger age, instead of insisting that all children must have GCSE maths and English, before they can access suitable college courses.
And, AlexaShutUp I do agree with your comment on SEN children.
I also agree with ss1234.

noblegiraffe · 08/10/2021 16:34

It wouldn’t necessarily need massive tax rises to improve education. The govt currently wastes huge amounts of money training new teachers who either go straight to the private sector (no requirement to teach in a state school), quit teaching before they start, or leave within the first few years.

No investment is made into retaining experienced teachers either.

It’s a massive and costly drain on the system to constantly be throwing money at training teachers, which is effectively pouring water into an extremely leaky bucket.

Hollowgast · 08/10/2021 16:35

Nothing to add to the discussion, but wanted to express my thanks for a fascinating post that explains things so simply.

As ever, the answer to the question "but why can't you just..." is much more complicated than it initially appears.

flippertyop · 08/10/2021 16:37

It depends on what you mean by equality I guess. If there are two children - same ability but one has an advantage from a private school system I would agree - but should the tax payer foot a large bill for someone who isn't going to deliver much back into society? Does someone who is only ever going to stack shelves need the same level of investment as someone who is going to be a doctor? I don't know. For me the grammar school systems makes more sense. Invest equally in the cleverer ones ensuring this is accessible by all not just distance from home etc. Private school pupils have entrance exams - they don't just take anyone so perhaps that is the answer. That said I can't see anyone bothering to pay for schooling if they can get it free at an equal level. My children go to state by the way, no grammar in this area before people make assumptions

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 08/10/2021 16:38

Schools actually get around £4K per child, nothing near the £7k.

Elephantsparade · 08/10/2021 16:43

Wow @flippertyop im very grateful to shelf stackers and their contribution to society.