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Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?

110 replies

SinoohXaenaHide · 08/10/2021 14:52

So, market forces and political currents over many decades seem to have fixed the amount that the taxpayer is willing to pay per year per child in state education as around £7k per year (£7,100 to be precise according to this article)

And in a well-run school with willing and able pupils, that amount of money is enough to provide a fairly decent quality of education. Obviously with more money a school could do more, but that would cost more tax, and this seems to be the level of balance between tax and education quality that we corporately as a population will accept.

In the UK the distribution of individual income means that about 20% of individual earners have more than twice the median disposable income. It's not at all surprising that some more well-off families wish to purchase a different education than that which is provided by taxpayers. About 7% of children are educated privately. In a free society the freedom to choose to educate ones children outside the state system is important and I don't think anyone is saying that it should be illegal to spend ones spare income on education if one chooses, only that this shouldn't be subsidised by the tax payer.

The above linked article says that Labour will abolish the tax advantages of private schools and use the money to fund state schools. We've had thousands of threads which go over and over how the practicalities of achieving that would be complicated (it would require a rebuilding of charity law from the ground up. Let's not get into that again though) but setting that aside, you are only talking about creaming an extra 20% of what is spent on 7% of pupils - although the rocketing of school fees might drop that to only 6% as a lot of self-funders can only just afford the fees as it is - and then you spread that among the 94% of pupils in state education. I've done the maths and that works out as less than £100 extra per pupil per year in state education - that's not going to make much difference.

To actually level up state education to the kind of quality that would begin to make private education obsolete because so many fewer feel the need to opt out of it, would take an injection of income into schools of more like £3,000 per year per pupil. That would be what was needed to get class sizes and facilities to a level that is more similar to the private sector. That would require about £30 billion pounds more per year into the education budget - there are about 30 million tax payers in the UK so that would require each tax payer to pay about £1000 per year more tax. Or if you made it progressive, that would be an extra £625 per tax payer for basic rate, £1,875 per year (3 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the higher rate and £5,625 per year (9 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the highest rate. This would raise the required £30 billion per year.

For comparison, the changes to National Insurance coming in next year to fund social care are expected to raise £12 billion - barely a third of that. So the kind of tax rise required is phenomenal.

Do we as a population want to see the kinds of tax rises that would be needed to actually level up our childrens education? Could a political party ever be voted in on a policy of tax rises of that magnitude in exchange for creating a state education sector that is good enough to make private schools obsolete?

Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?
OP posts:
Xenia · 10/10/2021 07:55

(Dixie, my twins did too - Blair brought in a voucher thing to be used by 4 year olds even at private schools but it was absolutely tiny - something like £600 (ie six hundred pounds only) v £10k school fees - even so Labour did introduce the concept of a voucher you could use at private schools which I rather liked)

NailsNeedDoing · 10/10/2021 09:10

It’s interesting to see what the impact would actually be financially, thanks for that OP.

It just shows that this Labour policy is nothing more than a policy designed to appeal to those who are bitter that they can’t afford private education for their own children and resent the fact that other people can. It’s not about improving education at all, but if it appeals to all the reverse snobs and wins some votes, then so what? Hmm

To answer your question, no, I don’t want to see taxes rise enough that all children would receive a private level of education. Throwing huge amounts of money at state schools won’t solve the problem of uneducated, unsupportive parents doing little to help their child’s education. It won’t stop there being a huge difference in what children know and are capable of from their first day of reception because that is mostly dependent on children’s experiences before they start school, and even if they are given support to catch up, their peers are moving further forward meanwhile.

Basically, the biggest thing that contributes to inequality of education is parental support, and that can’t be solved by spending extra money on primary schools that are already doing a good job.

Bayleaf25 · 10/10/2021 09:26

Purely speculating on a contract to compel trainee teachers to teach in the state sector for a few years, I could understand that argument when students received a government grant but now they pay themselves in the form of a student loan, so shouldn’t they be allowed to choose where they teach?

However largely agree with the most sensible levelling up thoughts here.

noblegiraffe · 10/10/2021 09:41

Up until the pandemic most secondary trainee teachers received a tax-free bursary scaled by how much of a shortage there was in the subject they trained in.

For 2019/20 these were:

primary with mathematics
biology
chemistry
classics
computing
design and technology - including engineering and food technology
English
geography
history
secondary mathematics
modern foreign languages
music
physics
RE

They cut quite a few subjects during the pandemic as they thought a recession would sort recruitment but after an initial surge in teacher training applications, recruitment is now back to normal (inadequate) levels.

For some subjects the bursary amount was way more than they will earn in their first year of teaching. One of the huge bursaries still offered is for classics where the vast majority of trainees head off to teach in the private sector.

Sleepyblueocean · 10/10/2021 11:57

"It won’t stop there being a huge difference in what children know and are capable of from their first day of reception because that is mostly dependent on children’s experiences before they start school,"

You think SEN is caused by parenting?

TractorAndHeadphones · 10/10/2021 12:20

@Sleepyblueocean

"It won’t stop there being a huge difference in what children know and are capable of from their first day of reception because that is mostly dependent on children’s experiences before they start school,"

You think SEN is caused by parenting?

PP wasn't referring to SEN but the headstart that kids who have been exposed to reading/etc have.
NailsNeedDoing · 10/10/2021 12:22

@Sleepyblueocean

"It won’t stop there being a huge difference in what children know and are capable of from their first day of reception because that is mostly dependent on children’s experiences before they start school,"

You think SEN is caused by parenting?

I think children whose parents don’t read to them, barely talk to or engage with them, who don’t take their children out and give them experiences like swimming etc, who promote a negative attitude towards school and learning and work, who don’t support children with schoolwork are at a significant disadvantage compared to those who do.

On the whole, of course parenting doesn’t cause SEN. But combine low natural ability along with poor parenting, and yes, it can create a degree of SEN because it can cause those children to be unable to access age appropriate learning that would otherwise be open to them.

It’s is well known that parents are a child’s most important educators. It is impossible for a school to properly compensate for poor parenting in five hours a day, term time only, even with all the money they could possibly want.

TractorAndHeadphones · 10/10/2021 13:46

@NailsNeedDoing SEN is not caused by poor parenting ability (regardless of quality of teaching)!. 'Low natural ability' is SEN. Don't blame this on poor parenting for god's sake.

However once SEN is identified the quality of parenting does make a difference. As the child spends the majority of their time at home. As you said one can have the best teachers but even with 1-to-1 support positive reinforcement, exercises at home etc etc children won't progress.

And THIS is the ultimate reason why there will always be an education gap. Short of removing children from their parents and putting them all into boarding school there will always be people with uninterested or uninvolved parents. And nobody can do anything about it.

Of course there can always be steps taken to change social attitudes towards parenting but these take a long time, are subject to people complaining about 'judgement' so it'll never happen.

Sleepyblueocean · 10/10/2021 16:27

"However once SEN is identified the quality of parenting does make a difference. As the child spends the majority of their time at home. As you said one can have the best teachers but even with 1-to-1 support positive reinforcement, exercises at home etc etc children won't progress."

You have missed something here- the ability of the parent to fight for decent educational provision. This depends upon knowledge, social circle, confidence and money.

TractorAndHeadphones · 10/10/2021 17:09

@Sleepyblueocean

"However once SEN is identified the quality of parenting does make a difference. As the child spends the majority of their time at home. As you said one can have the best teachers but even with 1-to-1 support positive reinforcement, exercises at home etc etc children won't progress."

You have missed something here- the ability of the parent to fight for decent educational provision. This depends upon knowledge, social circle, confidence and money.

@Sleepyblueocean that isn’t relevant in a world where state schools are decently funded - which is what we’re discussing.

In principle I’m happy to pay more taxes to fund better educational provision. However that alone won’t do much for equality if nothing is done from a family POV. That’s why the true costs of an effective ‘equal’ education include economic and social policies designed to support the family unit. And it’s much much higher than what’s stated.

Of course in the short term I’m happy to pay more taxes to fund better SEN provision etc - which will probably improve the lives of those diagnosed as the system is currently severely underfunded. However to go ‘beyond’ that and to make things truly equal the cost would be astronomical and impossible to fund solely from income tax.
Some happier news:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/10/08/oecd-reaches-deal-on-corporate-tax-after-ireland-agrees.html

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