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Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?

110 replies

SinoohXaenaHide · 08/10/2021 14:52

So, market forces and political currents over many decades seem to have fixed the amount that the taxpayer is willing to pay per year per child in state education as around £7k per year (£7,100 to be precise according to this article)

And in a well-run school with willing and able pupils, that amount of money is enough to provide a fairly decent quality of education. Obviously with more money a school could do more, but that would cost more tax, and this seems to be the level of balance between tax and education quality that we corporately as a population will accept.

In the UK the distribution of individual income means that about 20% of individual earners have more than twice the median disposable income. It's not at all surprising that some more well-off families wish to purchase a different education than that which is provided by taxpayers. About 7% of children are educated privately. In a free society the freedom to choose to educate ones children outside the state system is important and I don't think anyone is saying that it should be illegal to spend ones spare income on education if one chooses, only that this shouldn't be subsidised by the tax payer.

The above linked article says that Labour will abolish the tax advantages of private schools and use the money to fund state schools. We've had thousands of threads which go over and over how the practicalities of achieving that would be complicated (it would require a rebuilding of charity law from the ground up. Let's not get into that again though) but setting that aside, you are only talking about creaming an extra 20% of what is spent on 7% of pupils - although the rocketing of school fees might drop that to only 6% as a lot of self-funders can only just afford the fees as it is - and then you spread that among the 94% of pupils in state education. I've done the maths and that works out as less than £100 extra per pupil per year in state education - that's not going to make much difference.

To actually level up state education to the kind of quality that would begin to make private education obsolete because so many fewer feel the need to opt out of it, would take an injection of income into schools of more like £3,000 per year per pupil. That would be what was needed to get class sizes and facilities to a level that is more similar to the private sector. That would require about £30 billion pounds more per year into the education budget - there are about 30 million tax payers in the UK so that would require each tax payer to pay about £1000 per year more tax. Or if you made it progressive, that would be an extra £625 per tax payer for basic rate, £1,875 per year (3 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the higher rate and £5,625 per year (9 times as much as basic rate payers) for those who pay at the highest rate. This would raise the required £30 billion per year.

For comparison, the changes to National Insurance coming in next year to fund social care are expected to raise £12 billion - barely a third of that. So the kind of tax rise required is phenomenal.

Do we as a population want to see the kinds of tax rises that would be needed to actually level up our childrens education? Could a political party ever be voted in on a policy of tax rises of that magnitude in exchange for creating a state education sector that is good enough to make private schools obsolete?

Is equality in education actually achievable? and is it what we want?
OP posts:
worrybutterfly · 08/10/2021 16:46

I'm interested in where the £3k a student figure comes from and how it would be spent.

I don't mind paying extra but I feel like £3k a year would just go down the drain at a lot of schools. Instead what our local school needs is a lump sum of £££ to rebuilt it, when £3k a year per student would just be used to plug the holes.

That said I do think that teaching as a job needs to be made more appealing, especially in secondary. I work in STEM and after after having children looked into moving across to teaching. But £25k a year isn't exactly enticing, especially when I can earn over double that in industry. However, teaching in the private sector did look appealing once you factored in the free education for your children that a lot of them offer to staff.

zoemum2006 · 08/10/2021 16:48

It's a very British thing to be so obsessed with private schools and class. Most countries realise it's better for the general population to be well educated.

It does us no favours having some kids with loads more privilege than others and then whining about a skills shortage.

flippertyop · 08/10/2021 16:49

@Elephantsparade that is not what I mean and I am sure you know it. Anyone can stack a shelf not anyone can be a doctor. We should be encouraging those who can and want to be doctors to do this and investing in their educations to achieve this regardless of family income. We do not need to invest in the same level of education for someone who does not have that same level of intelligence

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 16:53

@flippertyop

It depends on what you mean by equality I guess. If there are two children - same ability but one has an advantage from a private school system I would agree - but should the tax payer foot a large bill for someone who isn't going to deliver much back into society? Does someone who is only ever going to stack shelves need the same level of investment as someone who is going to be a doctor? I don't know. For me the grammar school systems makes more sense. Invest equally in the cleverer ones ensuring this is accessible by all not just distance from home etc. Private school pupils have entrance exams - they don't just take anyone so perhaps that is the answer. That said I can't see anyone bothering to pay for schooling if they can get it free at an equal level. My children go to state by the way, no grammar in this area before people make assumptions
I fundamentally disagree with your suggestion that we should invest more in the "cleverer" children.

Firstly, it's almost impossible to have a fair system that separates the kids who are likely to succeed academically and those who are not. The 11+ very clearly favours those with wealthy, supportive parents. So some poor kids will end up as shelf stackers not because of their inherent lack of ability but because they were never given a chance to develop their academic potential.

Secondly, not all kids are academic but the vast majority will have other skills that are potentially very valuable to our society - whether they are practical skills, interpersonal skills or whatever. We should be investing at least as much in these kids and their talents as the very academic kids. However, there needs to be enough diversity within our education for them to find the right path that suits their talents.

Thirdly, some kids may not have obvious talents in any particular field. Indeed, they may struggle with everything due to SEN, disability or whatever. Nonetheless, they still deserve at least as much support as the next kid - arguably even more - to fulfil their individual potential. Their achievements may not be Nobel prize winning, but they may nevertheless be enormously significant for them.

I see education and the opportunity to fulfil potential as a fundamental human right. Not something where we need to calculate a return on investment and only bet on the kids who are most likely to win!

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 17:06

@noblegiraffe

It wouldn’t necessarily need massive tax rises to improve education. The govt currently wastes huge amounts of money training new teachers who either go straight to the private sector (no requirement to teach in a state school), quit teaching before they start, or leave within the first few years.

No investment is made into retaining experienced teachers either.

It’s a massive and costly drain on the system to constantly be throwing money at training teachers, which is effectively pouring water into an extremely leaky bucket.

Interesting. Perhaps there ought to be a requirement for people to work for a minimum number of years within the state sector or else pay back the costs of their training?

I agree that more needs to be done to retain existing teachers, but it seems to me that a lot of things would need to change in order to tackle this?

Fr0thandBubble · 08/10/2021 17:07

Honestly I hate paying so much tax, but education is the one thing I would be very happy to pay much more tax for. It’s not just the unfairness in the disparity in the standard of education that bothers me about the idea of private schools, it’s the social apartheid which I really hate.

I am generally pretty right-wing and believe in a low-tax state, but anything to do with children and their education and life opportunities, I am very happy for the state to throw money at; and I wish they’d do more.

Kite22 · 08/10/2021 17:21

Interesting. Perhaps there ought to be a requirement for people to work for a minimum number of years within the state sector or else pay back the costs of their training?

It is fairly staggering that this isn't built in to the agreement, I think most normal people would agree. The concept of saying to students "come and do this training for a year and we will pay you thousands" without any sort of contract where they have to commit to using that training, is frankly ridiculous, and could only have ever been thought to be a sensible use of public money by people who do not live in the real world.

I agree that more needs to be done to retain existing teachers, but it seems to me that a lot of things would need to change in order to tackle this?

Oh yes, lots and lots. But including a lot of stuff that wouldn't cost money.

Gardenlass · 08/10/2021 17:22

Honestly I hate paying so much tax, but education is the one thing I would be very happy to pay much more tax for. It’s not just the unfairness in the disparity in the standard of education that bothers me about the idea of private schools, it’s the social apartheid which I really hate
Even if there were no private schools, there will always be children and families who will congregate with others of the same background and values. Society can never be equal for everyone.

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 17:23

Society can never be equal for everyone.

I agree with this, but I don't think it means that we shouldn't try to make it as equal as possible.

montysma1 · 08/10/2021 17:25

Ut's not even the education that's unfair... plenty in state schools put perfotmprovate school pupils.
Its about the hidden advantages. Contacts, privilege and the old school tie.

Gardenlass · 08/10/2021 17:29

I agree with this, but I don't think it means that we shouldn't try to make it as equal as possible.
I suppose that's what Boris is talking about with his 'levelling up' mantra. In terms of transport, job creation, housing etc he can try. With education, I'm not sure. I think there are too many extraneous factors to ever achieve equality.

TreaslakeandBack · 08/10/2021 17:33

No thanks. I have one child. I would rather pay my taxes to contribute to state education and then spend 10-15k of my own money per year on education for my child. Once he’s educated that’s done with and I can spend my money where I like.

flippertyop · 08/10/2021 17:34

@AlexaShutUp I disagree. This is tax payers money it's never going to be limitless and it should be used in the best way. When you have a limited budget you choose to spend it to maximise its return. We do this as parents - we find an academic kid through Uni or take a kid that's good at drama to stage school.

SarahAndQuack · 08/10/2021 17:36

@Gardenlass

The assumption is that all children are equally intelligent and will benefit from a good education. Sadly that is not the case. If a child has SEN, then their education needs to be tailored to their needs, and mainstream school is not the best place to do this. Even allowing for no special needs, much success in education involves factors other than the school setting. Parental support and involvement is the main one. If parents are unable or unwilling to offer support, then only an extremely bright child will succeed, and most will leave school without the necessary qualifications for further education.
Why on earth would you think a 'good education' couldn't cater to a child with SEN?

Thousands of children have SEN and can do well in mainstream schools. I have SEN and I excelled at school. I've a friend whose child has Down's Syndrome, and she has also done extremely well in a mainstream school.

Having taught at very good universities for nearly a decade, I can tell you that being intelligent is not as important as you might think, and 'intelligence' is something that happens in tandem with good teaching - it is not innate.

SarahAndQuack · 08/10/2021 17:39

Anyway, sorry, that was a rant, but, OP, I am sceptical about this:

So, market forces and political currents over many decades seem to have fixed the amount that the taxpayer is willing to pay per year per child in state education as around £7k per year (£7,100 to be precise according to this article).

That makes it sound as if this number is fixed. But you give no good reason to believe it really is. We have no clue what taxpayers are willing to pay - all we know is guesstimates. I think this claim is really just passing the buck, from governments who have a fair amount of freedom in assigning budget priorities, to individual tax payers. It's a way of saying 'oh look, we have educational inequality - well, it can't be the government's fault, it must be us meanies who won't pay more tax'.

Cherryana · 08/10/2021 17:40

Some of the replies on this thread have been some of the best I have ever read on Mumsnet about education.

Actually, I thought Labour did a good job for a government (about 15 years ago). There was the 'building schools for the future' which rebuilt some really grotty schools in my area. Plus there was all the investment in 'Surestart centres'. A pronged 'attack' on social mobility that really did connect with parents and offer support from infancy.

I also think the Warnock review and its impact on SEN education and inclusion was great in theory and poor in practise and does not serve many well. It formed the basis for shutting down special schools.

To create a climate for equality of opportunity I would:

  • Create more specialist provisions so some pupils had a more tailored education in a less sensory stimulating environment.
- Focus on working conditions for mainstream teachers with less face to face contact so that planning and marking to be done in the working day. (This would mean there would need to be an increase in teachers).
  • Fund services and support eg Speech and Language, Ed Psych, Mental Health
  • Re-open Surestart in communities to support vulnerable families and children from infancy.
AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 17:40

@Gardenlass

I agree with this, but I don't think it means that we shouldn't try to make it as equal as possible. I suppose that's what Boris is talking about with his 'levelling up' mantra. In terms of transport, job creation, housing etc he can try. With education, I'm not sure. I think there are too many extraneous factors to ever achieve equality.
I agree, some kids will always have the advantage. We can never make it perfect. But we can do better than we're doing right now. And we owe it to those kids to try.
Choccyp1g · 08/10/2021 17:42

@Elephantsparade

Nobody would vote to increase spending by that much. The reality is for a huge section of society state education is 'good enough'. If i only had my eldest child and didnt work in a school, my opinion would be that the education he had has been good and he has thrived so why spend more? My work though shows me how precarious it all is

My other son has SEN and its a system in crisis so I actually do think a pot that equated £100 a head but targeted at specific groups such as SEN or PP would make a huge difference. Eg the school he went to that failed him as they didnt understand autism could have covered an extra floating TA and whole school training just from the £100 a head.

My first thought was surely the 7% of people who currently pay a fortune in school fees would vote to get the same quality of education for only £1000 extra tax. But then I realised they wouldn't because they want BETTER education than everyone else in order to give their children an advantage.
flippertyop · 08/10/2021 17:45

@SarahAndQuack intelligence is innate although certainly you can improve or under utilise your natural abilities. There is no doubt though that intelligence is varied amongst the population. Personality is also a factor. Two children can have the same start in life and one is driven to a hieve and one is not. Luckily we are not all the same and we don't all want the same things or there would be an issue

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 17:46

[quote flippertyop]@AlexaShutUp I disagree. This is tax payers money it's never going to be limitless and it should be used in the best way. When you have a limited budget you choose to spend it to maximise its return. We do this as parents - we find an academic kid through Uni or take a kid that's good at drama to stage school. [/quote]
But that's the point, isn't it?

As parents, we wouldn't just say, well, the older one isn't very smart so we'll invest everything we have in the younger one because we'll get a greater return on that? We would surely try to invest in such a way that enables each child to fulfil their unique potential. Whatever that might look like.

And yes, of course we have to spend public money in the best possible way. We just disagree about what's best.

My own dd is at the very top of the ability range. She is doing fine as it is, and I'm not convinced that she needs more resources thrown at her. I am much more concerned about the needs of the kids who are struggling in the current system. Those are the kids who we need to invest in so that they don't get stuck in a negative cycle.

Invasionofthegutsnatchers · 08/10/2021 17:46

OP do you work in a school?

flippertyop · 08/10/2021 17:50

@AlexaShutUp but within limited means you would decide where it was best to spend that money you wouldn't necessarily spend the same on both. I have a friend who has remortgaged her house so her middle child can go to dance school because she's very talented. She hasn't remortgaged her house for the others just so it's fair.

randomsabreuse · 08/10/2021 17:53

The vast majority of private schools do not confer the networking advantages suggested. Of those open to girls I'd say it would be the co ed schools like St Paul's or those closely linked with big old boys' schools.

I'm privately educated, my school made doctors mostly, the odd lawyer/management consultant but no one who would be able to network my kids into super well paid jobs.

Yes my kids will get the privilege of having an educated mother with a posh (English) accent - less useful now we're in Scotland. DH is similar, professional parents, middle ranked private school, now a vet...

Our kids won't be going private, couldn't get close to affording at and can add much better quality extra curricular activities with a wider range of peers than any in school clubs could have offered.

It would advantage all children if the children with additional educational needs could be fully supported in a way that is most appropriate for them - my private school (and various people from grammar and private schools I met through sport) was good at supporting pupils with dyslexia - and a decent number now have PhDs. I suspect a number of girls with high functioning autism find it much easier to cope/mask in private schools as well...

flippertyop · 08/10/2021 17:53

I spend more on my child with SEN because I think he needs it to catch up but that's an emotional decision made with my money. It's different when you are asking someone with no emotional attachment to make the investment. No emotions involved you would do what's best for the whole not the individual

AlexaShutUp · 08/10/2021 17:55

[quote flippertyop]@AlexaShutUp but within limited means you would decide where it was best to spend that money you wouldn't necessarily spend the same on both. I have a friend who has remortgaged her house so her middle child can go to dance school because she's very talented. She hasn't remortgaged her house for the others just so it's fair. [/quote]
If I had two children, I would aim to invest in them equally. The only time I could conceive of investing more in one than another would be if one had significant additional needs that might mean they needed more support to live a fairly ordinary life.

I certainly wouldn't invest more in one just because they were cleverer or more talented. I have seen that scenario play out in some families and it never ends well in my view. Bound to lead to resentment and allegations of favouritism.

Luckily, I only have one child. Grin