To know anyone irl with munchausens?

[Lw87]

Watching the gypsy rose doc, I'd never heard of munchausens disease before and can't even think I'd know anyone with it in real life

Has anyone actually had an RL encounter with someone with this?

Sadly it is becoming increasingly common for parents to be wrongly accused especially those fighting for sen support

There’s a group called Fiightback trying desperately to help these parents maybe have a look at their website 😞

And as for the suggestion that people make up illnesses to get dla or pip ……. Have you seen the form and how hard it is to get ??
You have to have a medical professional involved and often have an examination as well it’s not something you just apply for and get it’s a long and difficult process

@owlbethere

I think the thing to remember about people with factitious disorder is they ARE unwell, just not with the things they fake, it’s a psychological problem. As a child I used to fake illnesses or pretend illnesses were worse than they were because it was the only time I got my mothers attention. I stopped when I was in my teens because it wasnt really working anymore and took up ED and self harm instead. I was a very lonely sad neglected child and only years of therapy have helped.

I'm sorry to hear this. I hope you are doing ok now

I've known a few malingerers but don't think I've met anyone who had munchausens. There was one girl in an online group who was always checking in to hospital, and it was always the tricky-to-diagnose things - like fibromyalgia, or crohns disease. She had a litany list of things that would trigger an episode or flare up, gluten being one I remember. Another suspicious element was her jumping from consultant to consultant privately often as they were just about ruling out various things due to test results.

She never missed a meetup due to her ill health, nor did she avoid any of the foods we would have at them that she claimed would send her straight to A&E. The penny dropped for me when I spent an entire weekend with her wolfing down pizza, dairy, scrambled eggs, and drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Another member of the group suspected painkiller addiction rather than any kind of health anxiety

It is definitely real, and very difficult to diagnose.

Nhs for nearly 20 years (nursing and midwifery) and have come across only about 4 suspected cases. None by proxy but I haven't ever worked in paediatrics where I guess that would be more commonly seen.

Very different to health anxiety.

@damageReputation

And as for the suggestion that people make up illnesses to get dla or pip ……. Have you seen the form and how hard it is to get ?? You have to have a medical professional involved and often have an examination as well it’s not something you just apply for and get it’s a long and difficult process

Had you seen what I've seen, you'd know how it's possible.

My dc get dla and the application process was so difficult I can’t imagine how you could trick the system it must be nearly impossible we had home visits everything and they write to every consultant

Please read the full post before shouting at me.

Haven't RTWholeFT but wonder if I have FII. Being clear mine is not FII by proxy have never hurt my DCs or claimed they are ill when they are not. My DCs are thriving, clever, adored, well cared for their school attendance has always been 95% or more. One of them was in hospital once and that was v real.

I never feigned illness or sabotaged equipment or self harmed. Or accused anyone of anything.

All that I can tell you is that I have woken up in genuine, considerable pain every day for the past 20+ years.** I don't know why. No-one knows why. It is possible that it is psychosomatic, one HCP said it must be FII.

If it is FII then I am not aware of it IYSWIM.

It could be depression. I don't want to get out of bed in the morning it doesn't matter if it is sunshine or snow I want to curl up and die. Even on holiday. Every single morning. Why do I get up and put on a brave face? For my DCs and my DH. I want to be the best I can be for them.

Next bit might be triggering.

Second warning may be triggering.

I was sexually abused as a child for a decade. It wasn't my DM and DF they didn't know.

When I was 6 I started getting incurable UTIs had hospital admissions was kept home with DM. It is the only time in my childhood that I felt safe and cared for even though I was in pain.

My abuser couldn't abuse me when I was ill in bed and DM was taking care of me.

I think that I am in pain all the time because my subconscious wants me to feel safe and looked after.

If you want to scream at me because I am a bad bad person writing this post sitting next to DH on the sofa watching Netflix I am writing this with tears running down my face.

Who could I have been if that hadn't happened to me?

I &don't claim benefits. I have a career I'm well qualified and senior in my company.

@IKnowThisIsMe I dint you have FII tbh.

Being in pain and doctors not finding the cause doesn’t mean you are fabricating the pain and the illness.
The fact that your illness might have a psychological side to it doesn’t mean you are fabricating the illness and you are not in pain.

That’s where I have a major issue with the term being branded around and patients being labelled. Because very often the ones who are labelled as FII are those where the medical establishment can’t understand what’s going on and somehow they think they are so close to knowing everything that it MUST mean the illness doesn’t exist and people are lying/inventing stuff.
And that’s not right at all.

Hi @IKnowThisIsMe it's totally possible to have very real symptoms like pain that are caused by extreme stress or trauma in the mind. So don't feel bad.

I have actual epilepsy but when I was 15 I suffered from quite different seizures to my usual seizures. These turned out to be what are called 'pseudo seizures'.
They were very real to me but were not caused by my epilepsy- instead caused by my minds response to extreme stress.

Once I was told this by the neurologist I was very upset - I thought he was saying I was faking the seizures but he didn't mean that at all.
When it was realised that stress rather than my epilepsy was causing the pseudo seizures, the doctors took various steps to reduce my stress levels.
Then I could relax more and slowly the pseudo seizures stopped & I recovered.
They have never returned.

Now if I get anxious I get other symptoms for example I have Schizoaffective disorder so the paranoia & some hallucinations get worse despite meds.
But sometimes I get minor physical symptoms too which I know are due to stress, eg upset stomach or dizziness.
I just tell myself that it's anxiety and nothing physical is wrong with me so it goes away.

Unfortunately I still have epilepsy though, but my anti epileptic meds do control the epileptic seizures most of the time. But also stress can make actual epileptic seizures more likely, so...

I often get paranoid that people think I'm making up my symptoms of my mental illness because I don't seem like a person who is mentally unwell.
And when I talk to the neurologist about the epilepsy I think, does he really believe me? Because he knows I have MH problems.

I couldn't get PIP for the effects that Schizoaffective disorder has on my life because the assessor didn't believe me.

I just feel really paranoid all the time that people think I'm faking partly because of the problems I had aged 15...
It took me years to get over what happened sorry.

@Lw87
This is why they now call stress-related seizures "dissociative seizures" because pseudo made people think they were made up. My husband suffers from these, after being diagnosed as epileptic for 26 years!

[quote sueelleker]@Lw87
This is why they now call stress-related seizures "dissociative seizures" because pseudo made people think they were made up. My husband suffers from these, after being diagnosed as epileptic for 26 years![/quote]
I was addressing SommerTen; don't know why it came up as Lw87!

@IKnowThisIsMe I'm so sorry that happened to you and that you are in pain now. If you look back on the thread, many posters have talked about the difference between Factitious disorders and what you describe - in munchausens /FII, people fabricate pain or illness eg fake it.

You are not fabricating. You are experiencing lots of pain. The receptors in your brain are acting the EXACT same way as if you had been stabbed. So even if there is a psychological contributor, this is real pain.

@IKnowThisIsMe, FWIW, I have just been diagnosed with a condition after somewhere around thirty years of having health problems. Yes, along the way I've been diagnosed with others (and do have them), but until recently no-one has ever joined the dots. (I've been brushed off time after time by HCPs when I've said I thought it was all connected. Turns out, yes it is.)
It's taken me crashing and burning so to speak and me saying I wanted someone to look at 'all of me' and what's going on, to actually get a diagnosis. (I'm currently off work with no clue when / if I'll be able to return.)
Hang in there. Hopefully you will get an answer. I'm sorry you're struggling.

I have a friend whose 4 children always have something wrong with them. Lots of Facebook updates about rushing one to hospital for their breathing and them being then very quickly discharged one had a serious convulsion (that of course only she witnessed) called an ambulance who confirmed said child was fine. Always having x-rays because she thinks they've broken a bone (but never have) Its obviously for attention and the same 3/4 people comment omg Hun thinking of you. Sending prayers. Feel so bad that I just roll my eyes now. Oh she also thinks 2 of them have either autism or ADHD 🙄

I never feigned illness or sabotaged equipment or self harmed. Or accused anyone of anything. All that I can tell you is that I have woken up in genuine, considerable pain every day for the past 20+ years. I don't know why. No-one knows why. It is possible that it is psychosomatic, one HCP said it must be FII.

That doesn’t sound like Munchausens to me, or fabricated illness. Depression and trauma can cause very real physical symptoms including pain, fatigue, digestive problems, stress-related illness etc. If you’ve been running on cortisol and stress hormones for a long time, especially during childhood, there’s a theory your perception of pain may be increased, or the fight/flight reaction permanently activated so your brain chemistry changes. Lack of serotonin, endorphins and ‘feel good’ hormones, reduced immunity, less natural opiate-like chemicals produced by the body can all lead to chronic pain and heightened sensitivity to pain.

Have you noticed any improvement in pain when taking anti depressants eg amitriptyline or mirtazipine? Or medications like pregabalin that work on pain receptors?

It’s possible you’ve associated being ill with being safe from childhood trauma, but unlikely to be the sole cause of chronic daily pain.

This is why they now call stress-related seizures "dissociative seizures" because pseudo made people think they were made up

I’ve rarely heard them caused dissociative seizures (unless you mean they’re a symptom of Dissociative Disorder and resemble absence seizures?)

I’ve seen them referred to in medical notes mostly as ‘non-epileptic seizures’ but also pseudo seizures, functional seizures etc. The terms just mean they’re not caused by epilepsy. It’s not unusual for people to have epileptic seizures as well as non-epileptic ones (the latter normally caused by stress or panic). But a CT or MRI following the seizure can easily detect the difference; the electrical patients in brain activity are different after an epileptic seizure.

I once had a non-epileptic seizure caused by a high fever and an acute sinus infection, I don’t remember it but they scanned me and realised it was non epileptic (and diagnosed acute sinus infection that had spread to the bone, so I was kept in on IV antibiotics for a week).

Someone mentioned syncope (fainting) presenting like a seizure but I’ve never seen that, unless you mean some people go rigid or lose control of their bladder when fainting. But it’s quite easy to tell the difference as someone fainting has a dramatic drop in BP and their pulse slows, unlike a seizure.

very often the ones who are labelled as FII are those where the medical establishment can’t understand what’s going on and somehow they think they are so close to knowing everything that it MUST mean the illness doesn’t exist and people are lying/inventing stuff

Exactly, What is more likely - really? Someone having something that the medical staff can't work out because it's too difficult/they don't have enough resources etc - and someone simply making it up for attention.

There are attention seekers who try to go to the doctor for every last little thing, but that's not the same as making things up.

Thank you all for being so understanding. Many of you have said the similar things, I have used Fatehas post to quote from.

The pain I am in is emphatically real, I avoid my local main hospital because my notes there say that I have FII and they treat me as such. This includes refusing to give me a local anaesthetic for procedures that are usually completed with a local anaesthetic. Already traumatised, this has added to my fear and trauma.

My degree is psychology, I'm not a face to face psychologist, I would be terrible at it because I am too damaged. I do use my qualifications in my career.

Rationally I agree That doesn’t sound like Munchausens to me, or fabricated illness. Depression and trauma can cause very real physical symptoms including pain, fatigue, digestive problems, stress-related illness etc. If you’ve been running on cortisol and stress hormones for a long time, especially during childhood, there’s a theory your perception of pain may be increased, or the fight/flight reaction permanently activated so your brain chemistry changes. Lack of serotonin, endorphins and ‘feel good’ hormones, reduced immunity, less natural opiate-like chemicals produced by the body can all lead to chronic pain and heightened sensitivity to pain.

This, so much this. Unfortunately, as a child of the 70s and early 80s there was no safeguarding and no help for someone like me and now the NHS is far too underfunded to help people like me. I have a jumble of symptoms that don't lend themselves to a clear diagnosis.

Aside from DH, who has remained stubbornly loyal and understanding throughout our long marriage.

Have you noticed any improvement in pain when taking anti depressants eg amitriptyline or mirtazipine? Or medications like pregabalin that work on pain receptors?

Antidepressants don't help, pregabalin does and I take it now. I am still in constant pain and exhausted. Often I use my lunch hour to sleep in my car in the staff car park.

It’s possible you’ve associated being ill with being safe from childhood trauma, but unlikely to be the sole cause of chronic daily pain?

Yes, being ill, or at least, staying in bed in the way you do when you're ill feels safe to me. I agree that it isn't the cause of my pain, rather it is probably a symptom.

My employer are often asked whether we will take part in (not drug) clinical trials. I was chosen for a new type of brain scan, the result was that the neurologists found that I have mild epilepsy. I had no idea.

@SommerTen pseudo epilepsy is not FII, I'm sorry that you have been made to feel this way.

@TheDaydreamBelievers apologies that I hadn't RTFT in full, I have a quiet day today and I am going to go back through it.

@Energy4You That’s where I have a major issue with the term being branded around and patients being labelled. Because very often the ones who are labelled as FII are those where the medical establishment can’t understand what’s going on and somehow they think they are so close to knowing everything that it MUST mean the illness doesn’t exist and people are lying/inventing stuff.
And that’s not right at all.

This is certainly the case for me. If I was my own friend (IYSWIM) I would be furious that I have been treated like this. It's just how it is.

Bold didn't work for that message, I hope that it still makes sense.

@FateHasRedesignedMost; Both our GP and the specialist epilepsy centre that my husband attended called them dissociative seizures. They range from absence seizures to full-blown tonic/clonic seizures, depending on his health.

Fii and MbP aren't psychological diagnoses in the UK. They are terms for medical child abuse and the motive can differ. Fii can be driven by anxiety, financial benefit, need for attention etc. It's really complex and doctors, usually private, have been accused of colluding with it or of not interrogating parental reports sufficiently. I know of one private doctor who was known as the go-to for an hEDS diagnosis and a lot of other drs were critical of this. But who is or was right I don't know.

@orangeautumnleaves

Most people with genuine munchausens tend to move around hospitals quite a lot so no one catches on. They often get banned from trusts eventually so move on elsewhere.

The one thing I am not sure of is treatment for these people. Not sure if there are any people here I who work in mental health. It seems very similar to a personality disorder which I don't think revive any treatment. Not sure with Munchausens though.

It’s not one of the 10 currently recognised personality disorders, although agree there are overlaps with some.

Personality disorders do receive treatment, DBT (dialectical behavioural therapy), schema therapy, MBT (mentalisation based therapy) and CAT (Cognitive Analytical therapy) being the main NICE recommended options.

It’s a bit of a lottery as to which trusts provide which treatments though.

I guess why I've often wondered is whether people with Munchausens or MBP are aware they are faking it whether they genuinely believe they/their child is ill. And did Beverly Allitt know exactly what she was doing? I find it so difficult to reconcile their devotion to nursing with their murderous behaviour. Was it a conscious move to become a babies' nurse or is it a creeping illness?