To know anyone irl with munchausens?

[Lw87]

Watching the gypsy rose doc, I'd never heard of munchausens disease before and can't even think I'd know anyone with it in real life

Has anyone actually had an RL encounter with someone with this?

@FateHasRedesignedMost

physically unexplained symptoms, non-epileptic seizures do not always have a psychological cause. One of the reasons behind the change from conversion disorder to functional neurological disorder was because there were patients where no underlying psychological problems could be found. These patients would get batted from neurology and psychiatry (and still often do)

Out of interest what non-psychological causes have been found?

My experience is neurology admits and reviews patient first, rules out any obvious or serious neurological cause, then refers to psychiatry for further investigation. It’s common for psychiatry inpatients to have ongoing out-patient neurology appointments or attend repeat MRI scans etc. They are often under psychiatry and neurology at the same time.

IME there is no organic cause found for pseudo seizures, hence the name. No abnormal electrical patterns, no loss of bowel/bladder control, no post ichytal phase, no tongue biting. Often these non epileptic seizures occur when a patient is distressed (almost like a panic attack), or feels neglected/lonely/seeking comfort and attention from staff on a busy ward, when staff can’t give that psychological support due to other situations going on.

I’ve never come across patients who suffer pseudo seizures in the absence of any MH condition though I’m sure there must be some rare cases.

As for FND, I had a patient who was admitted to psychiatry in an electric wheelchair, having had her house fully kitted out with adaptive equipment. Claimed to be unable to weight bare yet managed to transfer independently WB when she thought staff weren’t watching, and somehow got from one side of a bathroom with a wet floor to the other without getting her jeans wet (despite claiming she’d crawled). A specialist FND placement was unsuccessful as she refused to engage with physiotherapy.

A different patient claimed she couldn’t walk, had used a wheelchair for years, yet suddenly got up and walked about independently. So had clearly been walking in secret or her muscles would have wasted.

It’s frustrating for staff, because of course there COULD be something physically wrong, or symptoms could be trauma related, but often it feels like the patient is inventing symptoms; sometimes they do have a motivation, like claiming higher rate PIP or receiving more input and resources from services.

Mum had pseudoseizures for years, always incontinent, tongue biting, but you could set your watch by when she’d have one; it was horrendous and bizarre and traumatising as a child to witness . I often wish I could solve it all for mum . She’s got massive cognitive issues now and it’s all mental health; but that makes it feel even more frustrating and devastating .

She never got support though, not until I had a nervous breakdown and tried ODing from doing all the care for her .

In my twenties I had a problem where I couldn’t pass urine, at all, it was as if there was a block . I also had horrendous pelvic pain, constantly. I genuinely thought I was going mad as they couldn’t find a cause at all.

It was about two or three years later that I was diagnosed with PTSD following serious sexual assault and sexual abuse, I didn’t know until then that those problems could cause physical symptoms like that .

Take panic attacks now and have bloody palpitations and feeling like I’m going to pass out constantly , it is hellish what your brain can do to you .

My x-SIL, who claimed she had lipodema and therefore could not work but managed to drive 6 hours to visit family. The lipodema went away...
With their first born they had MRIs and more done when she heard a blip on the baby monitor and thought the baby had heart problems....

I would say the vast majority mentioned on this thread don’t have genuine condition of actually faking something for attention, they are more likely health anxieties or even undiagnosed issues.

I think often these people go to the GP again and again and again and are so pushy and make such a fuss that they get referred to the hospital and to consultants and for tests just to shut them up

I don't think Fii or MbP are for financial gain, that's just fraud/malingers.

There's also plenty of people who don't claim benefits they/their children would probably meet the criteria for an award for.
I claimed DLA for DS1 when he was diagnosed aged 3. It was turned down. The consultant paediatrician was quite incensed and advised I should appeal and he would personally attend any hearing(!). Anyway I did but it rumbled on for ages. It must have been a year! Papers were lost etc eventually they just awarded MRCH. When it came time to do the renewal forms I just let it lapse as I couldn't face it.

he's always had full support at school statement then EHCP and attends an ASD base.

fast forward a few years and DS3 also ASD and ADHD.

During lockdown (DS1 was 14?, DS3 7) I applied for DLA for both. They both got MRC and LRM.

I don't have any LD myself, I just could not face the forms and the judgement etc. We aren't wealthy but have a mortgage so there's no big house incentive either.

It's just horrible, things are hard, you get patronised by professionals and whispered about by acquaintances, even family can get weird. Often because it becomes evident that they missed SEN in their own DC.

I have met one parent who definitely faked their child's illness. Think drawn on injuries. The child had a lot of investigations, scans, multiple ED attendances for this bizarre condition and it rubbed off!

I do think a lot of these are more health anxiety, or even just people's personality. Some people will go for a walk with a broken leg, others think they are dying with a cold. Some people enjoy the attention of being ill and so over egg the pudding but this isn't munchausens. It's just how different people react to being ill.

There's also more somatoform/psychological things. These symptoms are real but not caused by something physical. That's not munchausens either, it's not faking it or making thensleves ill.

I do agree though with the tiktok chronic illness community . This is more people who conveniently record their faints or seizures which always involve them flopping forward gently and then awaking with a sleeping beautiesque yawn. Endless videos of them taking their meds, sorting their meds, explaining etc. Endless videos on their various aids. Endless videos of them being ill essentially. What you have to remember is these are specific accounts set up to detail everything medical in people's lives, and it's therefore going to draw the more munchausensesque people. There's normally a story about how doctors did this that and the other to them, symptoms that don't add up etc.

@lifeturnsonadime

both of my children have autism, the attitude on here that just because a person cannot 'see' autism in a child means that the parent is faking it for benefits, is absolutely appalling.

Wow, you poor thing! Imagining that's what people are saying. FFS.

It’s unusual so many MNers know multiple people with FII given it is rare. I’ve seen it once in my long professional career.

For those who genuinely suspect FII - you need to contact children’s social care immediately. It is a form of a child abuse, in the same way as not feeding your child or physically assaulting them is abuse.

I think the difference between health anxiety and munchausens is more that the latter involves feeding off/enjoying/craving the attention that illness brings. That’s very different than being fearful of illness to the point of imagining it in yourself or your children.

I don’t think it has anything to do with fraudulent benefits claims really.

@5zeds

I think the difference between health anxiety and munchausens is more that the latter involves feeding off/enjoying/craving the attention that illness brings. That’s very different than being fearful of illness to the point of imagining it in yourself or your children.

I don’t think it has anything to do with fraudulent benefits claims really.

Some people with health anxiety even avoid doctors because they're afraid of having their fears confirmed that they have a terrible disease. The stereotype of a person with health anxiety is that they're always at the doctors for every little thing and some people are like that but not all. None of them ever want to be ill though, unlike people with Munchausens as you said.

Malingering for benefits is a thing too but separate from both health anxiety and Munchausens and I think it's probably less common that people imagine. Definitely much less common than people with genuine illnesses being denied benefits because they didn't tick the right boxes. It's hard enough to get benefits with a genuine illness, let alone a fake one.

As a student Nurse many ma y moons ago my first placment was on a female surgical ward. We had one patient who would be regularly admitted with severe abdominal symptoms that only Pethidine would work for. It soon became apparent that it happened every single time her husband went away to sea (RN). She would be "so ill" that her husband would be airlifted off his ship and flown home. He cottoned on pretty quickly what was going on as did his C. O. who warned him his promotion prospects were going down the drain. He tried to stop it but still the admissions continued. She would arrive on the ward and once in bed and injected she would be happy especially when she was told hubby was being brought home! New consultant started on ward and decided she was playing games. When she next demanded Pethidine the Consultant himself injected her with a placebo. Miraculously she was OK! She was discharged. Next admission she was not given a bed but told to wait in the treatment room. She was then introduced to the on-call Psychiatrist!!!

I have a family member whose presentation of health anxiety is avoidance, because her (late) mother also had HA and was always at the doctors. Family member hasn't been to the GP in 30+ years.

The family member quite likely developed the same condition as her DM had but is refusing to discuss it and gets furious at any attempts. But also weirdly she will claim she's had x illness/condition when she hasn't. It's a complex area I think.

She appears to be working with patients with diagnosis of FND and says it feels like they are inventing symptoms

I mentioned one case of a patient with FND, who was clearly making out she couldn’t weight bare at all when she could.

Patients don’t seem to remember there are cameras in the lounges, so if they say they need a transfer board and 2 staff to get from wheelchair to armchair, but furtively stand up and transfer alone when no staff are around, what conclusions do you think staff come to?

The other case of the lady in the wheelchair had no diagnosis of FND, she simply got up and walked one day after years of ‘needing’ a wheelchair and carers.

I’m not saying all cases are made up or exaggerated but sadly some are. Of course these people need care and psychological treatment. But with the NHS so under staffed and struggling for beds, there aren’t always enough resources. You can equip someone with carers, adapted living, specialist equipment, medications etc but there’s a limit to how much medics can test for conditions that either haven’t been discovered yet or are invented by the patient for whatever reason. Many people are lonely, isolated, seeking care and nurturing, needing attention and company… I don’t know what the answer is. Ideally you would give people the support they need to live happily without repeated admissions, but where does that support come from? And who pays for it?

@Schuyler

It’s unusual so many MNers know multiple people with FII given it is rare. I’ve seen it once in my long professional career.

For those who genuinely suspect FII - you need to contact children’s social care immediately. It is a form of a child abuse, in the same way as not feeding your child or physically assaulting them is abuse.

With the person I know, it was always her, never the DC, presenting as ill. In fact the DC missed out on getting support they desperately needed -- she was happy to visit multiple doctors and specialists and all for herself, but when her DC needed to be assessed for SEN or MH that was somehow avoided entirely. My guess is it would have taken attention off of her.

It has caused many, many lasting issues with the DC involved.

@FateHasRedesignedMost you talk about 2 patients and then in the same post talk about “Many patients” being lonely etc. You really should not be working with patients with FND if that is your attitude. A neurologist or neuro-psychiatrist will have given that diagnosis. It is not a diagnosis of exclusion.

In terms of “who pays” the NHS does not work on value judgments. I’ve done my ACL in from running. There is an organic cause for my pain. I have private health insurance so it will be fixed under that but if I didn’t the NHS would do it. I didn’t have to run, it really isn’t the best sport for the joints.

The same with a smoker with lung cancer. I presume you are saying they shouldn’t have treatment? What about the person who was so lonely/sad they took an overdose?

Just because a doctor can’t find an organic/physical cause does not mean someone should be denied treatment which could assist. The research of Professor Edward and Jon Stone both show how people can massively improve/get better from FND with the correct MDT programme.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to protect nhs resources from people who don’t need them. I don’t believe it helps anyone for someone with a one condition to be treated as though they have another. The “judgement” is not that the MH is less than it’s that it’s different. In fact mistreating someone by reinforcing their aberrant behaviour surely will compound their difficulties.

@5zeds not sure what condition you are talking about, but Munchasen is a recognised psychiatric disorder in DSM-V it is not just “aberrant behaviour”.

@5zeds different is exactly how you're treated. I've had the misfortune of being on a mental health ward where I was repeatedly refused help I needed e.g. refusing to cut up food because "it's not allowed" (I've two hands in splints and their knives aren't as sharp as mine at home) yet staff were cutting up others food or opening boxes of juice when I was forced to return and accused of choosing not to eat delibrately.

Either they're allowed or they're not but that's not how it works when you have such diagnoses.

@Rosemaryandlemon seeking treatment for fictitious conditions is aberrant behaviour that is displayed by people with this particular disorder. Rewarding that behaviour is not a benign act either for the people who cannot access the treatment they need OR for the person suffering from this condition. I haven’t devalued their diagnosis by discussing it’s ramifications or symptoms.

My friend's mother had Munchausen syndrome by proxy. My friend is in her 60s now and is in awful health due to what her mother put her through.

@5zeds you started your post that it’s not unreasonable to protect nhs resources from someone who doesn’t need them, but now it’s just you don’t want to reward behaviour…

Munchasen is rare, but it is a recognised psychiatric condition, and those suffering need assistance as anyone with an organic condition.

@5zeds

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to protect nhs resources from people who don’t need them. I don’t believe it helps anyone for someone with a one condition to be treated as though they have another. The “judgement” is not that the MH is less than it’s that it’s different. In fact mistreating someone by reinforcing their aberrant behaviour surely will compound their difficulties.

These people still need NHS resources, just different ones.

It's really rare, very difficult to prove/ diagnose (it's a mental illness) and an incredibly dangerous diagnosis to get wrong. It's also a very damaging diagnosis - people with the diagnosis have very limited access to health care because as soon as it's seen on records they are dismissed.

I've worked with a few diagnosed cases and a couple of suspected cases. It takes a long time, lots of evidence and a very senior psychiatrist before a diagnosis is made and if a patient gets a whiff that it's being discussed they often make lawsuits against you.

@TinselTitsAndGlitteryBits

I believe a lot of the kids on TikTok have Munchausen's.

There's a whole chronic illness community, with young girls covered in braces/straps/belts, with feeding tubes/picc lines/cannulas/catheters, either going round in wheelchairs or using rollators or crutches.

They also, of course, take a shit load of meds!

The most common conditions they claim are hEDS, gastroparesis, CRPS and fibromyalgia.

I'm not saying that they're all faking it. I personally have hEDS and I struggle hugely, but not to the extent of these children. I feel as though it's a competition for them - I actually saw people congratulating one girl for finally getting a feeding tube and cannula.

It's such a weird mentality, I can't believe their parents don't step in.

Yes I have noticed a spate of teenagers like this at work and online. I also suffer hEDS and use sports tape and strong painkillers to get through work so I do get how awful it is. It's never occured to me that young kids would fake it as it's a hard condition to get diagnosed.

It seems more common than I thought! Lots of experiences on here! Awful isn’t it.