AIBU to buy DS's maths workbook and let him go through it with a calculator?

[TamponSupport]

DS is 11 and struggles in maths. I suspect dyscalculia but the school say not and it's because he has ASD. They will not let him use a calculator until he is at secondary school, whereas I remember having one when I was 9!
He can't hold numbers in his head and mixes up place value.
After another batch of count the petals (one petal; 10 petals to a flower; ten flowers to a bunch) which he keeps getting wrong and has resulted into two days of tantrums and screen time bans, I think he is also bored with it and hates that he can't do it. We've tried writing it down, but he has difficulty with getting everything into he right columns.

I also think he's been very limited in his exposure to maths because the TA won't move on to the next topic until he has learnt the one he has done. then spends so long on the next topic he's forgotten the one he did before and they have to start from the beginning again

Would it be totally crazy to buy the school books, and let him go through them at home with a calculator so he can see that a) being able to count in your head is not the be all and end all and b) there is more interesting stuff out there than petal counting?

YANBU buy the damned book
YABU the TA knows what's she's doing

My mum did this for me, it worked really well. I didn’t get bored in lessons, I was mainly relieved I could follow and do the work without struggling to keep up.

Is dyslexia real then?

Not my area. However I know many children each year with diagnosed dyslexia and despite being a maths teacher for 15 years, I don’t see children diagnosed with dyscalculia. It’s not a thing that is routinely assessed for and diagnosed, and as I said, when people have studied children who have difficulties with maths, they have found explanations such as poor teaching at primary or other SEN such as poor working memory that explain their difficulty with maths, rather than some particular maths-based SEN.

If the purpose is to teach him maths can be more exciting than what he is doing at school choose different books than he is using at school. By buying the same as the school books you may be hoping he will will remember the answers, if he is struggling as much as you indicate he is not going to remember the answers, if anything he will be more disheartened as he recognise the questions and realise he still doesn’t know the answers.

drspouse we have a program that is not dissimilar to Doodle, but more visual and with less words. We've had the most success with this, he will agree to use it!

Inim we have tried! We can concentrate on one for a few weeks, but then he doesn't remember the one we were working on the few weeks before.

If you're just trying to get him to work through the book so he can fake his way at school, then you're screwing him over.
He won't be able to fake his way at school, because he won't be allowed a calculator at school

Key question: is working with this TA closing the learning gap for your DS and moving him closer to age-expected goals? If yes, ask to be shown concrete evidence of his progress. If no, what are they proposing to do about it?
No it's not and the proposal is to carry on as he is.

How is he at other areas of maths? Shape? Measuring? Drawing bar charts?
Well, he's not allowed to progress to the more advanced book without mastering the basics, so he's not allowed to do the stuff with bar charts etc. He seems to understand it when I've done some with him and on the computer program he uses. He's very visual so shapes etc are more successful than the basics.

His TA is a qualified teacher who has taken on a TA position for the few years before she retires.

It’s all well and good giving him the calculator now, but why about later on? When he’s in secondary school half of his maths exams will be non-calculator— no exceptions.
Then hopefully he'll be able to pass half his exams....

I wonder if anyone has ever tried teaching him strategies rather than just learning nine eights are seventy two with no context.
Yes, I have tried.

@Toomanyradishes

I would just get the lad a calculator and go for it. I cant do maths (or spelling) in my head, I have to see it written down. I also have a very poor 'minds eye' as in I think in words not pictures, so I cant see the spelling of a word I have to physically see it to get it. The only reason I can do my times tables is because I am good at repetition but I used to get into trouble with verbal spelling tests at school because they didnt understand how I could do written spelling tests well and verbal ones badly.

I now work in a heavily maths based profession (data and analytics) and have a science degree and I am part way through a masters. I have to count on my fingers, recite the times table to get the right value, and I have no idea if I have the right change or not. It literally makes no difference to my job as I use coding and spreadsheets and calculators to do maths.

If he can do things written down but not in his head then the teaching approach is crap and needs to allow for that. And if he needs a calculator let him have one, if he builds his confidence and self belief that he can do maths he may improve a little anyway.

Honestly we are almost in a cashless society as it is, who knows when he grows up if he will even need to check his change etc.

This is me. Almost exactly. Except I have (just) finished my maths—based masters

I was in the naughty group for maths. Always in trouble. Shouted at endlessly for being ‘thick‘ (yeah. Helpful)

The trouble with the approach kindly suggested bd 2bazookas is that will work brilliantly IF the pupil is capable of learning. Alas for me, saying ‘try it this way..try harder…practice MORE‘ didn’t work for tasks that I didn’t have the cognitive ability to do it just made me hate myself.

It is honestly like removing someone’s prosthetic leg and then telling then to run, try harder… you just need to practice.

It is really hard for anyone neurotypical to grasp, but there is a bit missing in my head (figuratively) I CANNOT add up in my head, I cannot hold onto numbers. There is no way I can make it happen, any more that a limbless person can will a leg into existence.

OP, I don’t know what to suggest to help now. I just struggled like shit till I could use a spreadsheet then I FLEW. I’m now in a sciencey maths based career, excelling and bloody loving it. I just wanted to tell you there IS hope, there are lots of us. Please just help him to hang on in there.

Which program are you using? Both of mine like the more spatial aspects (shapes, tables, bar charts, symmetry) and Doodle intersperses these with number work.
Before Doodle we used Maths 4-6 but they could both game that after a while.

I don’t think the school are right but what you’re suggesting would be extremely unhelpful to him. Regardless of technology he has got to find a way to learn mental arithmetic- at least the basics. The school and the TA need to change their approach or you need to fork out for a tutor. Letting him use a calculator is just going to give school the impression that he can do it when he can’t. I know it’s difficult but I would avoid battles at home and try to work this out with school/ a tutor.

@TamponSupport

Is this mental maths? Even if it is, encourage him to write down the numbers instead of holding them in his head. I do this at home, but he's not allowed paper for his working at school. So e.g. in a times table test he can't write out the times table somewhere, he has to count every single one out for each question.

Ye gods! I eded my teaching career teaching maths... and I ALWAYS used pencil and paper.

You nee to discuss this with the school, they are setting him up to fail/find it increasingly impossible to care, let alone catch up.

Mean time, yes, buy him a book. Give him pen and paper, calculator and let him experience success, find his own way to success. You can always focus on removing the calculator for some work later - he will ALWAYS have pen and paper in any assessment, any age, any level.

And agan yes, maybe a tutor who can help him find small successes and build up his coping strategies.

But mostly - get the school to hear you and him.

Thank you on behalf of your son for noticing he is struggling and actually caring. I begged anyone who would listen to help me but I didn't get my dyscalc diagnosis until college.
God I was so so sick of everyone going on about times tables. I had X tables tapes, books, videos, huge posters and despite working my little arse off endlessly I never could remember them, my brain doesn't work that way.
If you gave him five numbers, could he remember them? I can't. Writing things down doesn't help me either because numbers move around on the page and I can't copy numbers without them getting jumbled in my head.
Give him the calculator and whatever work books you think may help.

Regardless of technology he has got to find a way to learn mental arithmetic- at least the basics. I have a couple of science based degrees and, as I said previously, ended my teachin gcareer teaching mathc - Functional Skills and GCSE in an FE college - to kids who had failed so many times we spent most of our time making sure we weren't torturing the poor sods!

I have NEVER managed mental arithmetic. Never. If I don't have pen and paper I am functionally inumerate. Yet I manage complex data analysis; marking and grading student coursework, estimating end grades; bell curves of class groups; individual grade targets etc.

The point of teaching is, or was before The Goviot andothers got hld of it, as much teaching kids how to learn as well as what to learn.

Given that pen and paper are ubiquitous in all formal assessments they should be equally ubiquitous in all lessons, be the basic tools for all learning.

@Heronwatcher But so many of us cope really well in life and work without being able to do mental arithmetic; we're just lucky that as adults we can find way to help ourselves. @BrunelsBigHat has it spot on.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I do get this and I take my hat off to you, genuinely, but surely the better option is that people can do some mental arithmetic at least? Otherwise how do you work out whether you’ve been charged the correct amount, short changed or how much food to buy for a party etc? I bet you can multiply in tens. It sounds as though from what the OP has said the school are not really trying alternative methods- I think my view is just that the school or if possible a tutor should change its approach at this point to really try all the alternatives (one of which might work) rather than just getting a calculator which seems like the last resort to me.

You cannot move on from one area in maths unless you have mastered it. as others have said, maths learning is incremental. You cannot subtract until you can add. You cannot multiply until you grasp the concept of repeated addition. You cannot divide unless you can multiply. You cannot do fractions until you can multiply and divide. You cannot do simple algebra or missing number questions until you grasp the concept of inverse operations / fact families. You need a basic concept of place value to do any calculation at all, especially in the area of measurement. His TA is correct, although she may need to change her methods to more concrete ones. Using a calculator is counterproductive at this age as he needs to understand the methods of calculation so that he can answer word problems. The best thing you can do with him is help him to learn his times tables by rote, not just as a string of numbers but as ‘one times seven is seven, two times seven is fourteen’ and so on, in conjunction with concrete and visual materials. Boring, but once they’re in there they can be recalled.

Are the school certain that he doesn’t have dyscalculia? It would be worth finding a tutor experienced in dyscalculia to screen him. I have done this in the past, and pupils really benefit from focussed methods to make numbers real. If the situation isn’t addressed soon, he risks being stuck in the lower maths groups in secondary school which is fine unless he later has ambitions to do something in science, technology or computing for which he will need a GCSE in higher maths, not foundation.

so he's not allowed to do the stuff with bar charts etc.

This is mad. Bar charts aren’t ‘more advanced’ than times tables, they’re just a different area of maths. He should absolutely be experiencing maths like naming shapes, measuring objects, collecting data. If this isn’t happening then it needs to be raised as a serious concern.

but surely the better option is that people can do some mental arithmetic at least? Otherwise how do you work out whether you’ve been charged the correct amount, short changed or how much food to buy for a party etc? I bet you can multiply in tens. Yes, but, when teaching, I found it best to let each student find their own success before suggesting it.

And I wouldn't suggest a calculator at firts. Pen and paper. upport the understanding and the ability to guesstimate

For example: I had a young woman, trying to pass her BTEC course. She was older than most of the other students, she was 21. She had to resit maths, had tried GCE 5 or 6 times and REALLY didn't want to do it again. So she was relieved to find out that she could (at that time) do Functional Skills instead. She started at L2.

Every lesson she cried. Silent sobbing, large tears rolling down her face. She ended up in my class as I was the subject leader and, basically, the buck stopped with me. She cried and cried. Was unable to speak, could barely listen, just phased the lesson out, was incapable of interacting.

So we had another 1-2-1 and I made her a deal. We would start at the very basic maths she had learned as a 5 year old. Just me and her. starting with 1+1= 2. We reached her limit almost immediately. But over time, slowly, using books aimed at 5 - 7 year olds, she managed to find her own way to using her pencil to keep the tears at bay. It took a year before she could re-join a class. She isn't a stupid woman, she is now a lecturer in equine science. But, like me, someone somewhere along her maths education missed a gap and pushed too hard and all her confidence evaporated.

For me it has always been not knowing my time tables. I never learning the chants. So yes, maybe OPs son could get some benefit form being able to sing the song of the times tables, with no understanding whatsover - just like we used to learn them! Rote learning has it's place, sometimes!

I have a DD (18) with Dyscalculia (or it may be memory retention manifesting itself in Maths as Noble mentioned). She was in the bottom set of maths from year 1 at primary through to year 11 at secondary and despite trying really hard she never saw any improvement for her efforts. We decided in the end to just let the Math's 'go'. She focussed her time and efforts on all her other subjects and came out with some very good GCSE results. She is now three years into a college course and hoping to go to University next year. Unfortunately, the Maths is still following her around like a bad smell because, as per government guidelines, she needs to continue Maths at college and is on her third resit to try and get from an 'F' to a 'C' on just two hours teaching a week with a staggering 40 pupils in her class! Each resit has resulted in zero movement on her original grade.

If it was me OP I would suggest (rightly or wrongly) just buy the calculator and focus on your DS other subjects and strengths, it will be much better for both his confidence and both your anxiety levels.

I would also add that we did get a specialist tutor when DD was in primary year 5&6 to try and close the large gaps in her Maths knowledge before she went to secondary school, she enjoyed it and it was beneficial as it used a visual approach, however, because this style of teaching isn't used in mainstream (certainly not at secondary level) progress then stalled. Is there a specialist tutor in your area OP ?

Unfortunately, the Maths is still following her around like a bad smell because, as per government guidelines, she needs to continue Maths at college and is on her third resit to try and get from an 'F' to a 'C' on just two hours teaching a week with a staggering 40 pupils in her class! Each resit has resulted in zero movement on her original grade.

Sadly in FE colleges that is only too regular an occurrence - and I left 5 + years ago!

Something has gone badly wrong with maths education. It has been hardest hit by The Goviocy. Teaching it at that age group really is like being a professional torturer sometimes!

He can't hold numbers in his head and mixes up place value.

We had these problems - mathsfactor sorted them out.

As soon as place value was understood the muddling up of number stopped. The child with the really bad working memory also benefited from regaularly going over thing - and did finally learn times tables and is now really quick with number facts.

I think it being on screen helped and fact is was easy to go back again and again if necessary. They were younger but just plodded on and on at home and in end ended up ahead by end of primary and in really good place for secondary school.

I'm okay maths but metal arthimetic was an issue later diagnosed with dyslexia and poor working memory - but could always do sums on paper and could work out timetables gaps I had from one I knew.

I wouldn't assume the TA knows what they are doing - but the book and calculator wouldn't be my way forward as I'd really wat to know he'd grapsed basic ideas but something needs to be done and if school isn't listening then it does fall on you.

I did know more than 1 times table but had gaps.

Oddly Dc primary school was really against fingers being used for counting in any way but I still use fingers in queues when I haven't paper to hand as my fingers are always there - and I did manage to get a Maths A-level.

@noblegiraffe

so he's not allowed to do the stuff with bar charts etc.

This is mad. Bar charts aren’t ‘more advanced’ than times tables, they’re just a different area of maths. He should absolutely be experiencing maths like naming shapes, measuring objects, collecting data. If this isn’t happening then it needs to be raised as a serious concern.

This a thousand times.

If I could revisit my maths education from primary upwards, I’d take the shitty arithmetic pressure off entirely.

I’d roll through all the glorious variations and uses of maths till he found that slight foothold on something.

Mindlessly hammering at the same bit isn’t going to work, he needs a change to understand it is a massive subject, and endlessly useful in so many things. I’ve been fadging about with graphs all day today, and getting paid handsomely for it. Love a good graph.

Im just like curious functionally innumerate if I’m caught without a calculator or pen and paper. I was tested for dyscalculia. And I absolutely do not have it. It is just the working memory thing.

Letting him use a calculator is just going to give school the impression that he can do it when he can’t.
I don't see why this would be the case? He wouldn't be taking the book into school, the teachers will never see that he's working through it at home.

I had X tables tapes, books, videos, huge posters and despite working my little arse off endlessly I never could remember them, yes, this is where we're at!

If you gave him five numbers, could he remember them?
I'll try this out. Do you mean like say 25, 10, 8, 17, 4 and then ask him to write them down. Immediately? Or after a minute?

but surely the better option is that people can do some mental arithmetic at least?
Well yes, I agree. And life would also be easier for him if he didn't have any SN, but I can't actually change that.

Using a calculator is counterproductive at this age as he needs to understand the methods of calculation so that he can answer word problems I think you can understand a word problem and know what calculation you need to do without actually doing the calculation though.

The best thing you can do with him is help him to learn his times tables by rote, not just as a string of numbers but as ‘one times seven is seven, two times seven is fourteen’ and so on, in conjunction with concrete and visual materials. Boring, but once they’re in there they can be recalled. Or you can do all this for a few years and they still can't be recalled. We are way beyond the stage of cooperation in reciting tables. You cannot force someone to speak if they refuse.

This is mad. Bar charts aren’t ‘more advanced’ than times tables, they’re just a different area of maths.
Yes, I think so too. Which was why I was thinking of buying the book and working through it with him so he covers the ideas and different areas that the rest of the class are covering, but without the stress of actually having to do the addition etc by himself. I think this kind of maths will crop up in his other subjects soon and then he'll be at a disadvantage in those because he hasn't covered the topics the rest of the class has as he is still on times tables etc.

Not 2 digit numbers for the memory game - 1 digit, and he says them back the second you finish, he doesn't write them down. They have to be in the right order - this will test his working memory.

Yep, so if you say 3 5 1 9 2 can he remember and recite it back straight away?

The average person can do this for 7 digits. If it’s below 5 there’s an issue with working memory that will really impact ability to do mental arithmetic (even 5 will cause problems).

Working memory issues can be really helped by jotting down numbers on paper so they don’t need to be remembered. It’s not an issue with actually doing the calculation.

5 yes, 6 no, 5 with one double digit number no.

Now try them backwards (that's true working memory) - start with two though.
So you say 3-6 and he has to say 6-3
Don't use 2 digit numbers as they count as two "chunks".
And they should be about 1 second apart, no ups and downs in tone (phone numbers are easier to remember when you say them in groups or go up and down)