AIBU to buy DS's maths workbook and let him go through it with a calculator?

[TamponSupport]

DS is 11 and struggles in maths. I suspect dyscalculia but the school say not and it's because he has ASD. They will not let him use a calculator until he is at secondary school, whereas I remember having one when I was 9!
He can't hold numbers in his head and mixes up place value.
After another batch of count the petals (one petal; 10 petals to a flower; ten flowers to a bunch) which he keeps getting wrong and has resulted into two days of tantrums and screen time bans, I think he is also bored with it and hates that he can't do it. We've tried writing it down, but he has difficulty with getting everything into he right columns.

I also think he's been very limited in his exposure to maths because the TA won't move on to the next topic until he has learnt the one he has done. then spends so long on the next topic he's forgotten the one he did before and they have to start from the beginning again

Would it be totally crazy to buy the school books, and let him go through them at home with a calculator so he can see that a) being able to count in your head is not the be all and end all and b) there is more interesting stuff out there than petal counting?

YANBU buy the damned book
YABU the TA knows what's she's doing

Yes, he has very poor working memory. No, he can't recite the tables, he has to count them out.
We've tried linking it to his obsession, all it has done is make him upset because he won't ever be able to work with his obsession. So we stopped doing this.
We've used sweets, sultanas, biscuits etc ad nauseam.

I think in your position I would want the input of an Ed psych

There’s certainly a reason he finds this difficult, understanding this will enable reasonable adjustments to be put in place. It could be dyscalculia or poor working memory or something else entirely

Work books can be helpful but if it’s causing anxiety and some level of demand avoidance and thereafter meltdown then perhaps he should be exempted from homework that is counterproductive

I say this as a mum and wife of people with ASD, DD in particular would become very anxious and demand avoidant over some approaches to learning

I do wonder if the TA needs to think more outside the box on her approach with this topic perhaps get some input from the senco on it

So from a mum of a now yr8 who had the same issues. Take a step back- take the pressure off. Sometimes maths is a matter of maturity and forcing at whatever point will not improve the issue and just destroys confidence.

My dd was in the "stupid maths group" right the way from year 1 to year 6. (Her words not mine). Expected to get less than 90 in maths SATS (which she never took). She started secondary and was put in the mid stream for maths, where she has remained and is on track for a "C" grade at GCSE.

The difference- approach and confidence and that added maturity. She did have a tutor from yr4 through to half way in year 6. But this was a friend who just helped her through stuff rather than anything formal.

But yes definitely seek out the SENCO at school and get either some proper intervention OR the TA to back off a bit. Poor lad.

Personally I'd forget pushing maths at home. Concentrate on building his confidence and getting him into the right secondary.

This poor poor child. How has he got to age 11 without any significant intervention in maths? Or is the TA supposed to be the intervention?

Whatever, this clearly isn't working and is not likely to work if your child has problems with working memory (and possibly other undiagnosed difficulties).

@TamponSupport

I wouldn't be buying the maths book, I wouldn't be spending any more time on maths homework (do you have the same problems with other homework?) and I would back off entirely as this kind of pressure resulting in meltdowns like this will be having a serious detrimental impact on his mental health and self esteem.

Has he ever had an assessment by an EP? If not I would make an appointment to see the SENCO and ask for one, with a view to seeking an EHC Needs Assessment. If your child is 5 years behind the rest of his class the EP's advice should have been sought long ago.

If school refuses and is generally unhelpful, you can apply for an EHC Needs Assessment yourself. Information here:

www.ipsea.org.uk/ehc-needs-assessments

Or is the TA supposed to be the intervention?
Yes. And she's so busy preparing a separate maths syllabus for him that she doesn't have time to prepare support for this other lessons

If your child is 5 years behind the rest of his class the EP's advice should have been sought long ago.
It has been, he has had several assessments. They won't test for dyscalculia until they're three years behind and now no one will test because of ASD. The TA has been there for 5.5 years.

Has he ever had an assessment by an EP?
Many.

do you have the same problems with other homework?
Mildly, but nowhere on the same level of the maths.

So the support for maths is not working at the expense of other support he needs. And how can an unqualified TA even begin to know how to prepare "a separate maths syllabus for him?

Apply for an EHCNA yourself, using the model letter on the link I posted above.

Sounds like your child needs specialist teaching, not an unqualified TA.

This will only get worse at secondary school.

He needs specialist help, not just the TA following the same old routine until he 'gets it'. Because quite possibly he will never get it.

And it is best to get in place before he gets to secondary school, so I would do whatever you can to get him the support he really needs, following pp advice.
I think the school are letting him down allowing him to be so far behind but it's time to change that now, good luck.

It;s really important he grasps place value. If he doesn't, then he's going to struggle with basic adult skills like reading prices. Simple addition and subtraction are essential skills .

Using a calculator still requires him to be able to understand the number on the screen. To understand the difference between £2.02 and £ 202.

Play shops. Play card games like snap that develop visual recognition skills. Dice board games like snakes and ladders that develop a link between the number on the dice and the equivalent number of squares. Dominoes (recognising and matching numbers). Once he grasps a single dice, play board games using two dice, simple addition.

Play shops.
He's 11, he hasn't played shops for several years!
Play card games like snap that develop visual recognition skills. Dice board games like snakes and ladders that develop a link between the number on the dice and the equivalent number of squares.
He won't. Refuses to join in, he thinks we're trying to trick him into doing maths. Same for cooking, he won't even read a recipe out any more.

According to school and the Ed Psych, his TA is the specialist. She's a former primary teacher who we suspect couldn't control a class and has now decided to take an interest in SEN children and go part time before she retires. We're counting down the days until that happens (Feb) tbh.
There is only one secondary he can go to. It had a bad reputation a few years ago, but people only have praise for it now, new head and proactive help for those who need it.

Yes, he has very poor working memory.

Play card games like Happy Families, where he learns to recognise a set. Or matching pairs.

Show him the many ways nature uses pairs and number sets and patterns All birds have two legs and two wings. Farm animals all have four legs . Numbers have patterns that make things work right.
In our house, numbers have patterns too. Four people need four plates and four cups. Use concrete examples of numbers

For times tables there's a wonderful book called Harry's Magic Tables, it's very cleverly done. All 3 of my kids learned their tables from that rather than the various school methods, my youngest in particular is really responding to it now, and frankly it's helping me nail what I never nailed as a child!

All birds have two legs and two wings. Farm animals all have four legs
Again, he is 11 and has difficulty with maths. He is not an idiot.

Four people need four plates and four cups.
Obviously. And he knows that, he's not stupid. But he wouldn't be able to tell you how many items e.g. four plates, four cups, four knives and four forks are in total without counting.

For times tables there's a wonderful book called Harry's Magic Tables,
Oh that might appeal to him, thanks! I did get a story one that was recommended on here a few years ago but it didn't really help.

My DD is in Y3 and is in a slightly better place but has been through this struggle and isn't even really beginning to grasp times tables. She's also got a v poor working memory (possible ADD; DS has ADHD but she doesn't have the hyperactivity).

I agree he HAS to understand place value. Rods/piles of blocks of 10 are the way to go.

I'm not convinced that a label of "dyscalculia" will help because you already know he finds maths hard and that it's related to poor working memory. Are you hoping he will somehow be let off maths? As in he will have help to do it as part of exams (like a child who gets a scribe)? Because that seems unlikely for e.g. science exams. Children who already have a diagnosis/EHCP/extra help should get extra time in relevant exams anyway. Life won't let him off working out how much money he has in his bank account, he will just either need to get there in the end or get help.

We use Doodle Maths for DD which she still needs a little bit of help with but which completely tailors to your child (she's just finished Y1 curriculum). But it means I have a much better idea of what she can do and whether what she's doing at school is appropriate. I feed back what we are working on to school, they can use it or not as they wish. Also it's on an app so appealing to children who like screen time... I have a code at home I think.

From someone who struggles with maths and still does I think your idea is really good. I ended up hating maths and I still didn’t understand it no matter how many times I was shown, It just never clicked.

Can you get some counting blocks or whatever they're called now and use those so he has something physical to manipulate?

Maybe a maths tutor? I can remember really struggling with something at school then we had a sub teacher who taught it in a different way and it finally clicked for me. Sometimes a different approach can really help!

I would just get the lad a calculator and go for it. I cant do maths (or spelling) in my head, I have to see it written down. I also have a very poor 'minds eye' as in I think in words not pictures, so I cant see the spelling of a word I have to physically see it to get it. The only reason I can do my times tables is because I am good at repetition but I used to get into trouble with verbal spelling tests at school because they didnt understand how I could do written spelling tests well and verbal ones badly.

I now work in a heavily maths based profession (data and analytics) and have a science degree and I am part way through a masters. I have to count on my fingers, recite the times table to get the right value, and I have no idea if I have the right change or not. It literally makes no difference to my job as I use coding and spreadsheets and calculators to do maths.

If he can do things written down but not in his head then the teaching approach is crap and needs to allow for that. And if he needs a calculator let him have one, if he builds his confidence and self belief that he can do maths he may improve a little anyway.

Honestly we are almost in a cashless society as it is, who knows when he grows up if he will even need to check his change etc.

Do it, OP.

As adults, we find ways of helping ourselves with things we find difficult all the sodding time. Maths happens to be one of those things that people process differently. I am absolutely shite at mental arithmetic, I use my fingers to work things out, but written down I can work out complex algebraic equations etc.
If he was just starting to learn and was finding it hard, then no of course you don't reach for the calculator straight away - but after 5 years of maths? Fuck me, yes.

Also my dad is shit at basic maths, cant measure for diy, but can do really complex maths. It may turn out your son is good at some meths he is just being held back by not being allowed to use the tools that might help him. Give him the chance, it may turn out that without the fundamentals he cant progress even with a calculator but at least this gives him the chance to find out.

Forget the book.
I’d be more concerned that you are saying something to the school and they are ignoring you and fobbing you off.
If you think he has another issue, then insist that this is investigated or pay privately if you can to find out what is going on.

Good luck.

DD2 used to really struggle with maths, to the point that she literally couldn't learn in a maths lesson because she was so panicked about it. There were lots of things that helped.

One was pre-teaching - the teacher would take her out of assembly and say 'DD2, we're going to be learning something in maths today that might blow your mind, so we're just going to have a little look at it first.' Or, 'DD2, a while ago we did x, and we're going to do it again today, so I just want to remind you of it before we do maths today.'

For place value, the is really helpful. I've linked the least annoying (but still a bit annoying!) video I could find. It really helped DD2 to understand the whole concept of place value and what is happening when you do a sum.

The only trouble with a calculator, I think, is that at secondary school they will still expect him to do stuff without a calculator, and method gets most of the marks in an exam.

I can recommend this, I've used it with a number of students to great success.
www.amazon.co.uk/Plus-Introductory-Coaching-System-Success/dp/0953981215/ref=asc_df_0953981215/?hvlocphy=1006496&linkCode=df0&hvptwo&psc=1&psc=1&hvnetw=g&hvadid=310855476898&hvpone&hvlocint&th=1&hvpos&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl&hvqmt&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=pla-563906857563&hvrand=12646104135575459095

titbumwillypoo
DD has something similar from school, which I've tried to use with him but it requires some cooperation on his part! I can't force him to speak, he'd rather sit in silence for ten minutes...

One was pre-teaching - the teacher would take her out of assembly and say 'DD2, we're going to be learning something in maths today that might blow your mind, so we're just going to have a little look at it first.'

1. that would never happen in our school
2. DS is so far behind, he doesn't take part in the class lessons, he has separate worksheets to do when his TA isn't there. We have used similar to that Montessori Stamp Game for the past 3 years.

Honestly we are almost in a cashless society as it is, who knows when he grows up if he will even need to check his change etc.
This is something to keep in mind!

How much of his maths teaching is coming from this TA?
I would be concerned about that. Is he also taught maths by his teacher?