To think that vigilante justice should be back on the table?

[Dutch1e]

We give up the right to take personal revenge in exchange for being protected by institutions like police and courts.

When these institutions spectacularly fail women and children, can we consider the social contract broken?

At this point I'm struggling to see any other way to resolve male violence apart from a wide-sweeping free-for-all on every cat-calling, bantering, beating, raping murderer out there.

You are being ridiculous. What if these vigilantes who were baying for blood got the wrong person? What then OP?

Violence, state ordered or vigilante, does not fix violence. Decent sentencing for offences such as rape and domestic violence may help. People being taken seriously when these crimes are reported may help.

You know why it wouldnt work, taking aside all the stupidity. Because, as an example, a man rapes me so my dh goes out and attacks him, my dh then has to live with the trauma of that forever. He is a good man who has never assaulted anyone, why should he have the burden of that on him. Or am I supposed to be the one to face up to the guy who has attacked me, or my dad or my sister? Why the hell should any of us have to live with that on our conscience, making a horrific situation worse and harder to cope with.

Have you ever actually inflicted violence on anyone? I havent, and Im not sure you can go around wildly declaring its the way forward if you havent.

Have you read The Power by Naomi Aldington. It touches on this. What happens if women find themselves in a position where they are no longer at the mercy of physically stronger men. It's interesting. Not quite the same as the vigilante justice system you are proposing but interesting nonetheless.

Because, as an example, a man rapes me so my dh goes out and attacks him, my dh then has to live with the trauma of that forever.

That's a nicer case scenario. What if the DH is just no match for the bad guy physically and ends up dead or badly hurt too.

@SouthSideSally

I get where you're coming from. It's the ultimate fantasy of the powerless to be able to turn the table on their oppressors. I was out walking the other evening and I imagined a pack of women roaming the streets hustling men into the back of vans or heckling them or just intimidating them. And how society might deal with it.

I think this is really at the heart of it, yes.

Never, ever.

@Toomanyradishes

Violence, state ordered or vigilante, does not fix violence. Decent sentencing for offences such as rape and domestic violence may help. People being taken seriously when these crimes are reported may help.

You know why it wouldnt work, taking aside all the stupidity. Because, as an example, a man rapes me so my dh goes out and attacks him, my dh then has to live with the trauma of that forever. He is a good man who has never assaulted anyone, why should he have the burden of that on him. Or am I supposed to be the one to face up to the guy who has attacked me, or my dad or my sister? Why the hell should any of us have to live with that on our conscience, making a horrific situation worse and harder to cope with.

Have you ever actually inflicted violence on anyone? I havent, and Im not sure you can go around wildly declaring its the way forward if you havent.

I know everything you say makes sense, although I was thinking more about the violence being committed by women than by their men. Something along the lines of the Gulabi Gang (the vigilante group sometimes called the Pink Saris).

And yes, I've committed violence in self-defence but I take your general point.

@SouthSideSally

Have you read The Power by Naomi Aldington. It touches on this. What happens if women find themselves in a position where they are no longer at the mercy of physically stronger men. It's interesting. Not quite the same as the vigilante justice system you are proposing but interesting nonetheless.

I haven't, no. Thank you for the recommendation, I'll take a look.

I totally understand your frustration but can't see it being a solution.

Obviously, this isn't a serious suggestion. Aside from the other objections, 'vigilante' justice is the kind of crazed, unanalytical, downright stupid thinking that can't even differentiate between a paediatrician and paedophile. So it attacks and persecutes medical carers who actively work in children's best interests.

Should mob rule get a foothold that's the kind of thing we'll see. And the worst offenders will simply go underground, which is in no one's interests. Granted, the principle of a fair trial is not infallible and as a result some victims will not get justice. But it's the best we've got.

(And yes, I've read Naomi Alderman's 'The Power' and for just a minute allowed myself to fantasise about what society might look like if the tables so far stacked against women were turned. But that's fiction).

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Obviously, this isn't a serious suggestion. Aside from the other objections, 'vigilante' justice is the kind of crazed, unanalytical, downright stupid thinking that can't even differentiate between a paediatrician and paedophile. So it attacks and persecutes medical carers who actively work in children's best interests.

Should mob rule get a foothold that's the kind of thing we'll see. And the worst offenders will simply go underground, which is in no one's interests. Granted, the principle of a fair trial is not infallible and as a result some victims will not get justice. But it's the best we've got.

(And yes, I've read Naomi Alderman's 'The Power' and for just a minute allowed myself to fantasise about what society might look like if the tables so far stacked against women were turned. But that's fiction).

It is fiction of course. And it posits that ultimately power corrupts. Even vigilante power.

Shall we let this topic fall by the weight of it’s own stupidity?

@SirGawain

Shall we let this topic fall by the weight of it’s own stupidity?

Or maybe we could talk about what causes people to feel so powerless that they would imagine it to be their only recourse? And how that might change?

I totally understand how you feel. A lady in her 80s was saying nothing has changed since she was a young woman. Like yourself totally disenchanted with the justice system, BUT taking the law into your own hands- no. There have been many cases where innocent people have suffered through rumours with no evidence and mistaken identity. Some innocent people have died.

@Dutch1e

We give up the right to take personal revenge in exchange for being protected by institutions like police and courts.

When these institutions spectacularly fail women and children, can we consider the social contract broken?

At this point I'm struggling to see any other way to resolve male violence apart from a wide-sweeping free-for-all on every cat-calling, bantering, beating, raping murderer out there.

And what if you target an innocent person which happened recently in Europe. A girl falsely accused a man of sexual assault. That man was brutalised and murdered by her parents. She later admitted she lied and made the whole thing up.

I recall a case some years ago where a paedophile was hounded by vigilantes. It transpired that he was actually a paediatrician and the mob were too stupid to know the difference.

No because if you get things wrong then there's a whole set of other people now wanting to get justice on you. And so on and so on until the original insult is forgotten in a tribal war between 2 groups/families/ideology.

And vigilante justice might go too far and end in death. While I personally believe there are some people who are so dangerous the world would be a better place if they were put down (like you'd destroy any other dangerous animal. Kindly, not in revenge but just a 'sad but for the best way') you only have to get that kind of thing wrong once and an innocent person is dead - you can't take that back. Death penalties and very permanent solutions should not be allowed.

If you don't like the way the justice system is working then you have to use political power - voting, protests, strongly worded letters to authority figures and organisations, petitions, etc - to change things within the system that does work a lot of the time. It has to be said that there are people on this planet who look at the UK's system and would give anything to have it.

HalzTangz

Yes, I was waiting for the whatabouts to beging ignoring the endemic deaths and brutalising of women and children everywhere. When rape stops being effectively legal, and when women are no longer being intimidated, harassed, silenced, and killed simply because of their sex then we can talk about the (extremely rare) tragedy of false accusation.

extremely rare? do you have facts to back that up then op? or...

and actually....this vigilanteism you speak of....what does it look like ? are we talking knives? using other weapons? killing or maiming? what are we actually doing to the would be villain here?

YABU.

The institutions are far from perfect, but that's no excuse to take justice into your own hands. Do you want to create chaos and undermine society?

I appreciate what you're saying but it would go so wrong and be so abused and people would use it as an excuse to hurt each other and innocent people would get caught in the cross fire. The police and justice system are a let down in a lot of cases but vigilante justice wouldnt be better.

You see, in Hollywood movies they get the right (bad) person and they vigilante away.
In reality, there are way too many cases of mistaken identity, too many doubtful accusations ... while Justice is, indeed, blind and sometimes doesn't work the way we want, we can't take matters in our own hands. I certainly wouldn't want to play the cop, the judge and God.

Vigilante justice unfortunately attracts unpleasant characters creating their own violence and furthering their own agenda under the guise of it being 'acceptable.'
The Salem witch trials, the Nazi regime - hell, I even got a bit worried on these boards last year when some folks were wetting their knickers about reporting neighbours and friends for really minor breaches of Covid rules. There is too much room for innocent people to be targeted and mob violence is never the answer.
I do however believe the police need to do very much better and need a massive overhaul of their public image, full retraining and ZERO tolerance of any misogyny, racism, homophobia etc, however low level. They all need to understand they themselves are not above the law, with consequences. No protecting their own any more for misdemeanors.

I’ve been wondering this as well but ultimately no. It’s definitely not a good idea.