following today's news...to say police should not be allowed to arrest women when operating solo

[RBKB]

Just that.... what tragic and terrifying news regarding Sarah Everard's murder. I am so angry as I gather the force minimised earlier reports of sexually deviant behaviour by this appalling man.

@TrishM80 why an earth is this a ridiculous question? As others have said it’s what happens in Scotland? And many police officers have said on this thread that they would prefer it. This idea that the first time someone suggests an idea the best thing to do is dismiss it or pick holes in it is what’s causing half the problem here. Why not read the thread with an open mind? What’s your suggestion to ensure that someone bring “arrested” can check if it’s legitimate or if they’re about to be raped, murdered and set fire to?

I was absolutely sickened when I read what that bastard did to Sarah Everard but it's one deviant who just happened to be a police officer. This isn't commonplace and the police need to be able to do their jobs, which includes arresting women committing crime.

The police have been campaigning about reducing single crews for years to no success. Single crews have meant an increase in arrests stats (as each can arrest separately rather than 1 arrest being shared), and an increase in response times (responses to petty crime are quicker bringing the average down, while IMO responses for jobs that need 2 take longer) . Its allowed staffing gaps to hidden and your force look twice as big.

Some areas operate on single crews alone, some stats say the 80% of officers across England said they were always alone or often alone. Freedom of information requests have shown (particularly in response policing) that single crews are the default for many forces.

Obviously the take has been on the impact it has on police assaults etc, risk to public they can't respond to big incidences if their back up is far away rather than risk to the public from police

The reality is that the system isn't built to allow for double crews consistently any more, and there would need to be a long term recruitment and funding plan
The worry for me is that if there is finally political will now to sort it then there will be a knee jerk of putting officers together without then any plan of how to fill the gaps it leaves

Here's some examples of years of police federation campaigns, research, news articles and even questions to mayor's of London etc

www.london.gov.uk/questions/2020/2824

www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/15917045.chairman-thames-valley-police-federation-warned-officers-greater-risk-assaulted-single-crew-measures/

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10439463.2017.1417990

www.change.org/p/amber-rudd-stop-single-crewing-police-officers

www.theargus.co.uk/news/10712996.sussex-detective-warns-single-crew-cars-could-see-officers-stand-by-as-crimes-are-committed/

You want to change an entire nation's policing strategy because of one case?

It is important to remember this case, whilst shocking and tragic, represents one off duty police officer.

@BoredZelda

You want to change an entire nation's policing strategy because of one case?

It is important to remember this case, whilst shocking and tragic, represents one off duty police officer.

Do you think that this was the only incident of a police officer abusing his privilege?

Do you think that this could happen again?

Do you think that the police operate in a way that is seen as consistently above reproach? Consistently?

Maybe it’s easier to write this off as a “one off” shocking case. But this is the result of a journey - a slippery slope towards the rape and murder of someone. If that slippery slope is stopped by improving police practices then absolutely change is needed.

This guy was not an anomaly. His behaviour in the run up to this was normalised and it wasn’t until it was too late that people finally question if our police force is fit for purpose.

@BoredZelda

You want to change an entire nation's policing strategy because of one case?

It is important to remember this case, whilst shocking and tragic, represents one off duty police officer.

No, it doesn't. There are other cases, not murders, of police officers using their position to target vulnerable women. Example: PC Chris Wilson who sexually exploited a domestic abuse victim.

It's a fact that a certain type of predator is drawn to professions where there is access to the vulnerable. We need to be far hotter on worrying behaviours in candidates and ongoing checks throughout careers.

And saying it's one officer, ignores the sexist culture in the police service, and the fact this officer had a reputation as "the rapist" yet continued to serve until he murdered Sarah.

Daft idea because it would cause many more problems than it solved. How many cases have there been of single police officers falsely arresting a woman so that they can abduct, rape and murder them? One? I can't think of any other similar cases, and they're the sort of thing that gets a lot of attention on the news.

If you say single officers can't detain women, it's the start of a slippery slope. What if the officer is homosexual, should he avoid arresting men too? Perhaps the officer is racist, so no single officer should arrest BAMEs. Look out, here comes a female officer, she can't touch that gangster in case she sexually assaults him?

The problem with the Everard case, the problem with the Nessa case, is that the publicity they (understandably) receive makes women more nervous than the reality suggests they should be. This leads to daft suggestions like men shouldn't be allowed out after 6pm and police officers shouldn't carry out an arrest if they are alone. We need to assess risk based on facts and evidence. The facts are:
a) I'm much less at risk of being attacked and murdered than a man (men account for about 80% of murder victims).
b) I'm much less at risk outside in public than I am at home (the vast majority of murders of women happen in the home or other "safe" place).

The perception of women being at greater risk is just that, a perception that is not bourne out by the facts. If you see a lone policeman walking towards you in the street the chances are he's exactly that, a lone policeman who happens to be headed in your direction. If a man walks behind me in an alley, great - I know that most men aren't going to attack me, and any would-be attacker hiding in the bushes will be put off by the fact a man is behind me.

Seeing bad things on the news doesn't make them more likely to happen to you - and neither does risk vary by the amount of coverage a story might receive.

@hangrylady

I was absolutely sickened when I read what that bastard did to Sarah Everard but it's one deviant who just happened to be a police officer. This isn't commonplace and the police need to be able to do their jobs, which includes arresting women committing crime.

The problem is that his behaviour escalated. It’s a known pattern. People around him would have seen his escalating behaviour and did nothing to call him out on it. Just let it slide.

I remember being subject to a flasher when I was with my baby ds. I called the police, back when we had more police and they took it seriously and explained it was likely that this person may end up carrying out a serious sexual offence. As it was, more incidents did happen and there was a local attack. I don’t know if it was the same person.

The police should know the patterns of behaviour of sexual criminals and come down hard on it.

Easy to say it’s one bad apple but one bad apple does spoil the cart.

@HarrietsChariot

Daft idea because it would cause many more problems than it solved. How many cases have there been of single police officers falsely arresting a woman so that they can abduct, rape and murder them? One? I can't think of any other similar cases, and they're the sort of thing that gets a lot of attention on the news.

If you say single officers can't detain women, it's the start of a slippery slope. What if the officer is homosexual, should he avoid arresting men too? Perhaps the officer is racist, so no single officer should arrest BAMEs. Look out, here comes a female officer, she can't touch that gangster in case she sexually assaults him?

The problem with the Everard case, the problem with the Nessa case, is that the publicity they (understandably) receive makes women more nervous than the reality suggests they should be. This leads to daft suggestions like men shouldn't be allowed out after 6pm and police officers shouldn't carry out an arrest if they are alone. We need to assess risk based on facts and evidence. The facts are:
a) I'm much less at risk of being attacked and murdered than a man (men account for about 80% of murder victims).
b) I'm much less at risk outside in public than I am at home (the vast majority of murders of women happen in the home or other "safe" place).

The perception of women being at greater risk is just that, a perception that is not bourne out by the facts. If you see a lone policeman walking towards you in the street the chances are he's exactly that, a lone policeman who happens to be headed in your direction. If a man walks behind me in an alley, great - I know that most men aren't going to attack me, and any would-be attacker hiding in the bushes will be put off by the fact a man is behind me.

Seeing bad things on the news doesn't make them more likely to happen to you - and neither does risk vary by the amount of coverage a story might receive.

Officers should not act alone. If the police themselves don’t like single crews who are we to suggest otherwise?

Also I would hope that this case would also make people realise just how our culture including violent porn - which we turn a blind eye too - has a huge part to play in this.

YANBU. I bloody wouldn't get in a police car with one policeman too. I'd scream the place down rather than do that. The police can explain away this man's behaviour all they like - one on the news last night was saying 'We don't consider him to be one of us' - yeah well that's okay mate but every single woman in this country does!

@zafferana

YANBU. I bloody wouldn't get in a police car with one policeman too. I'd scream the place down rather than do that. The police can explain away this man's behaviour all they like - one on the news last night was saying 'We don't consider him to be one of us' - yeah well that's okay mate but every single woman in this country does!

Presumably if you're under arrest, he could force you. And if you're under arrest, people probably aren't going to take your screaming as anything more than evidence against you.

I also think lone women should have the right to request waiting at the scene for a second officer if their arresting officer is a lone male.

^^ this in spades

Why this is a reasonable request has sadly been proved by what happened to Sarah.
If we give women the right to a female chaperone during intimate check ups by male doctors because they might abuse their power, why not do the same thing when women are actively restricted in their freedom by a male who has a gun, handcuffs etc. and the authority to use them? Women are typically not undressed in this situation but I would feel a lot more vulnerable in this situation then with a male doctor even when (partly) undressed.

if the police themselves don’t like single crews who are we to suggest otherwise?
As someone else has mentioned the Police Federation have been campaigning against increased single crewing for years. It's never safe. You never know when a "routine" job might turn dangerous. See PCs Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes who were lured to Dale Cregan's ambush. Most officers hate being single crewed, sometimes it's fine reality of policing is that you never know what awaits you the other side of the door.

Single crewing is used by politically motivated senior police leaders to hide the gaps in staffing caused by underfunding. Directed by the PCCs who are in turn directed by their political masters.

However, double crewed or single crewed would this have made any difference to Sarah Everard ? As a law abiding member of the public she probably trusted what she was being told was true.

@DrSbaitso sadly I'm sure that's right - and no doubt that's what made Sarah comply and get into her killer's car - even though she probably had serious misgivings about doing so

The police officers I know don’t like single crews and I was under the impression if they arrested a female then a female officer was called to accompany when available?
I don’t think all police officers are this person. I think there are evil people, men and women in every job. I want my children to still feel safe to go to a police officer if under attack or scared. I trust the police more here than in the US and other countries where they are run by religious organisations.

Also what about the evil men who buy police uniforms and pretend to pull over women, or those who pretend to be doctors or delivery drivers or an electrician sent by the council etc. Safety comes into play everywhere but it doesn’t make everyone evil.

Difficult one. I can absolutely see your point. i don't think police officers should be patrolling on their own for their own safety and protection (but we that's a whole other thread).

But lone policemen will be arresting females suspects every day of the week, Some of those women could be extremely dangerous. Not arresting them because the police officer is on their own creates a problem also.

However, double crewed or single crewed would this have made any difference to Sarah Everard ? As a law abiding member of the public she probably trusted what she was being told was true.

^Sadly, I agree. I think the majority of us would have done the same.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

In my force yes a single crewed male officer may have to arrest a female on his own - however he wouldn't be getting her in his car without a female colleague.
This is mainly due to the requirements of the police and criminal evidence act in relation to powers of search. However most male officers don't want to transport female DPs alone for all sorts of reasons.
I still don't know how this would have changed the situation poor Sarah found herself in - would she have gone with him anyway, even if there was a known double crewing policy ? He would have found a way i am sure - in the way that criminals that are determined find a way around policies and procedures

In my force yes a single crewed male officer may have to arrest a female on his own - however he wouldn't be getting her in his car without a female colleague.

That's good to hear, but I wonder how many people don't know that? I didn't, and people who would have seen someone in handcuffs being bundled into a car might not either - this needs to be better known.

I agree, this is a good policy but it’s no help if the general public don’t know this.

But Sarah Everard was breaking the law, was she not? So an honest police officer, on his own, would have had to let her go? We can’t have a situation where people breaking the law are allowed to go free because a police officer is alone, surely? Whilst one man is a monster we cannot limit the powers of the police on the assumption that all men are waiting on the chance to murder woman, out on their own.

She wasn’t breaking the law and even if she had, she’s still entitled to safety. Being arrested doesn’t suddenly rob you of the right to be safe. The right to not be raped and murdered.

I’ve seen it reported that she had broken the COVID laws as it was during lockdown. Clearly I’m not saying that she deserved to be murdered (bloody Hell), what I’m saying is that you cannot take away the fundamental ability of the police to arrest someone whom they see breaking the law.