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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

following today's news...to say police should not be allowed to arrest women when operating solo

267 replies

RBKB · 29/09/2021 18:36

Just that.... what tragic and terrifying news regarding Sarah Everard's murder. I am so angry as I gather the force minimised earlier reports of sexually deviant behaviour by this appalling man.

OP posts:
dressingdowngown · 29/09/2021 22:47

He wasn’t on duty, actions of a psychopath, they could be anywhere police,medics,teachers. Could he have been stopped in his path- most def delayed it seems but someone with this much determination and depravity he probably would have found a way. As an ex cop I feel for everyone in this case the damage done is as awful as it gets, for the family there are no words just heartbreaking.

category12 · 29/09/2021 22:48

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/25/revealed-hundreds-of-sexual-harassment-claims-against-male-police-officers-england-scotland-wales

This is an old article - the police have a problem. Fact is, some people deliberately take up positions of power/authority in order to get access to vulnerable people. The police are no different in that respect.

They need to be far quicker to get rid of anyone whose behaviour is questionable.

There was a case recently where a policeman got a slap on the wrist for engaging in sexual acts with a domestic abuse victim and it was reported on as if the only thing wrong with it that he did it in the police station, not the fact he was completely abusing his position and exploiting someone extremely vulnerable.

StoneofDestiny · 29/09/2021 22:48

So it's fine to let dangerous women go free while they wait for backup? Don't be daft. If someone is going to attack a woman, they'll do it anyway. Preventing lone police arrests will not make the situation any better

Exactly. This killer could have done this on his way to and from work - or even kitted out in a pretend uniform etc.

StoneofDestiny · 29/09/2021 22:50

We can't trust men

Ridiculous.

We can't rust some men. We can't trust some women.
Give up with the man hating mantra.

Cherrysoup · 29/09/2021 23:03

Who’s going to pay for the double crew? In my area, officers are usually single crewed once signed off for independent patrol. My DH tutors, so usually has a probationer with him, but can often be single crewed. Should he wait for a colleague every time he needs to arrest someone?

saltinesandcoffeecups · 29/09/2021 23:09

@thinkningaboutit

I think that's entirely reasonable. We can't trust men.
Lucky for you the Taliban has the answer for that.

Women are ‘protected’ from men by always having to have a family male escort, not being allowed to hold jobs with men, not being able to go to school with men and boys, not being able leave their home “for their security” , not showing their faces and covering all but their eyes.

Weirdly… the women in the Handmaids Tale are also protected against violence. Since we all like to point to that book as a warning system.

No thanks…I’ll take my chances with the risk as things are now.

2Two · 29/09/2021 23:09

So an off-duty officer is out and about and recognises a female murderer who she knows is wanted. Is she supposed to let the murderer go?

EmeraldShamrock · 29/09/2021 23:11

So it's fine to let dangerous women go free while they wait for backup.
No-one is suggesting the police let dangerous women leave a crime.
Handcuffs even sit on her but wait for back up.
I seriously doubt a single officer would transfer a dangerous prisoner alone in a patrol car with the risk of attack from a head butt or bit, they definitely wouldn't transfer a dangerous male, they'd be secured in the police van or under the watchful eye of a non driver.

EmeraldShamrock · 29/09/2021 23:15

officers are usually single crewed once signed off for independent patrol.
Isn't this dangerous for the police officer?
I'm really surprised I binge watch 999 what's your emergency and didn't see any single patrol officers.
That's scary for the officer.

AngelicaSchuylerAndHerSisters · 29/09/2021 23:17

Under Scots law, there are always two cops, so not such a crazy idea, OP.

2Two · 29/09/2021 23:17

It doesn't have to be double crewed patrols. If a police officer has reasons to arrest a lone women then he detains her at the scene and radios for assistance, once they arrive then they remove her to custody

What if that isn't possible, for instance in a situation where the accused's friends are crowding around trying to free her? It's not realistic to say the officer must put his own wellbeing at risk rather than move the woman to where she can be safely detained.

mathanxiety · 29/09/2021 23:20

Google 'impersonating police kidnap woman' or similar and you will find many reports of this sort of crime from the US.

It takes a bit more effort to impersonate a police officer of course.

OP, I agree with you.

@StoneofDestiny -
Ridiculous.
We can't rust some men.

Someone invented a nail polish that you dip in your drink to show you if it's been drugged. However, we still don't have magic glasses to tell us which men we can't trust when out and about at night.

At the same time, there's lots of coverage in the news of murders of women committed by men.

What to do, what to do...

Maybe stop covering murders of women by men? That way we could all stop being so judgemental, and trouble makers would have to shutup about inadequate protection from predators.

Namechangeapologies · 29/09/2021 23:20

XenoBitch

"Police officers can arrest people when off duty. They would not have a radio on them then, but can call it in on their phone, and call for back-up etc.."

And therein lies the problem.
During the pandemic the police were handed widespread and sweeping general and unspecified powers AND those powers were applied inconsistently and unpredictably and were publicised widely and sensationally in the news.

If you think about it, the right to arrest anyone, anywhere even when off duty is a big entitlement in today's society.

Yes I have heard of citizen's arrest. But the above (the right to just arrest someone with the words "I am a policeman" (and no other verifiable justification / evidence of credibility) is staggering.

Clearly Wayne Cozens was/is a special category of dangerous.
However surely it is sensible to question whether the police should carry more up to date evidence of authority and evidence of joined up process (communication with the police station) just as a matter of course. It is the 21st century. It would be reasonable to expect this, ESPECIALLY for a woman who is not in any way acting in a antisocial or disruptive manner, to know her rights regarding a scenario of arrest.

The laws around police arrest are too much of a blunt instrument.

I totally get the need to avoid a situation where things are kicking off, the police arrive and the suspect starts questioning the authority of the police to intervene/arrest.

But there must be a middle ground.

Even on the C19 lockdown daily-changing standards, to purport to arrest a single lone woman when she is literally walking alone along an urban street for "breaking C19 rules" is just bonkers.
And the tragedy is that lots of women (including myself) would have not questioned it and would have just got in the car.

2Two · 29/09/2021 23:21

No-one is suggesting the police let dangerous women leave a crime
Handcuffs even sit on her but wait for back up.

So how does that work in, say, a vigilante mob? Does the officer provide the mob with a sitting target whilst waiting for back-up, or get the arrested person safely away in a car?

mathanxiety · 29/09/2021 23:22

No thanks…I’ll take my chances with the risk as things are now.

Liberation!

Hmm
saltinesandcoffeecups · 29/09/2021 23:29

@mathanxiety

No thanks…I’ll take my chances with the risk as things are now.

Liberation!

Hmm

I’m sorry, what freedoms are you willing to give up for safety. Because last I checked you can’t have it both ways. You are either protected and treated differently or treated the the same with risk.

Conundrum isn’t it?

Peoniesandpeaches · 29/09/2021 23:29

@HotPenguin

Perhaps another solution would be to require police officers to check out and check in their ID?
That seems really sensible. They should not only have to leave their ID but all their uniform too the way some health care trusts make hospital staff do it since part of what made him so convincing was the belt and standard issue cuffs.
SopaDeThistle · 29/09/2021 23:33

Lol wait till this policy met the real world. It would be a disaster. Not to mention you'd have to consider "gender identity" nonsense - what happens if a male criminal suddenly begins to identify as a woman?

Namechangeapologies · 29/09/2021 23:33

Why is it that police officers are allowed to arrest even when they are not on duty.
But qualified nurses are not permitted to adminster (potentially life altering) medical assistance in (what they perceive is) an emergency situation.

Because - and please do correct me if I am wrong here (and i may well be) - there is no threshold in terms of seniority of rank in the police force where an off duty policeman can make an arrest. And there is no right under criminal law for the person being arrested to ask to see (at the point of arrest) evidence of the status of the policeman to make that arrest.

I might be making serious errors in the above assumptions (please correct me).

I hear that the Met police really struggle to recruit full stop. So anyone willing to do the job (suitable or not, criminal record or not, mental health issues or not etc etc) is likely to be considered sooner or later. And if they have required skills and do not evidence performance problems, are likely to be promoted/advanced quickly and without scrutiny.

SopaDeThistle · 29/09/2021 23:38

I can imagine this would end with some clown world scenario of lone male police officers having to ask perpetrators what their gender identity is before they could proceed to arrest them.

DdraigGoch · 29/09/2021 23:39

@Kindleswitchface

Would you like to pay the extra taxes to fund the additional police officers required to ensure double crewed patrols? If yes, crack on.
Most police officers would prefer to go back to double crewing anyway. If you arrest a suspect, there's no van available, and the car doesn't have a barrier separating the driver from the prisoner in the rear, you need two officers. One to drive, the other to watch the prisoner. So you end up abandoning a car while the two officers go to central custody in the other.

Never mind that when you are in a scuffle, it feels like it takes forever for assistance to arrive.

DdraigGoch · 29/09/2021 23:41

I think AIBU but I also think all officers should wear body cameras (and have them on obviously) when on duty.
I thought they did always use them (uniformed officers anyway).

jcyclops · 29/09/2021 23:42

If I may add to the half-baked ideas - Police horses would have to be very strong if each had to carry two officers. Motorcycle officers could also ride 2up - which might also work for pizza deliveries.

mathanxiety · 29/09/2021 23:43

I’m sorry, what freedoms are you willing to give up for safety. Because last I checked you can’t have it both ways. You are either protected and treated differently or treated the the same with risk.

Conundrum isn’t it?

I'm lucky enough to live in a place that funds its police, and police patrol in pairs or have backup to summon for immediate help, whether dealing with male or female offenders.

I do have to pay for the proper staffing of the police force through my taxes, but I don't see a problem there. I get what I pay for. Other people get what I pay for too. I care like that.

DrSbaitso · 29/09/2021 23:45

@Kindleswitchface

Are domino's drivers also not allowed to deliver single crewed to females?
This isn't comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing apples to golfing umbrellas. Are you feeling well?
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