Horrible abusers in the music industry - R Kelly verdict [title edit by MNHQ]

[RickJames]

Well, R Kelly is off to jail. Thank goodness. He was evil! But he made some great music. Like Chris Brown, Michael Jackson and to a certain extent James Brown. Ike Turner, Phil Spector, Gary Glitter.. even David Bowie was after it in the 60's. Jon Bonham they were all at it. Either or both abuse of women and children. Even that chap from Kasabian beat his wife up. It seems to be a thing. Loads more examples possible.

AIBU to expect that despite the enjoyable music they created/ sang on they shouldn't be played on commercial/ public radio anymore. Maybe if we protested then (im not innocent, I know it would be purely for the money) record companies would insist on non-criminal behaviour. In much the same way that say, for example, Siemens or Haringey Council would as employers.

Part of me feels like the music should stand for its musical value. A larger part of me feels like 'this is why we can't have nice things' and we shouldn't tolerate any part of their legacies.

AIBU?

@CounsellorTroi

Should Rolling Stones music be banned because of Bill Wyman?

This. When it is a solo performer the decision is easy. But a group?

I will continue to listen to The Lost Prophets until I see a band publication asking me not to. They are talented individuals who don't need to be punished for something they didn't do and have soundly decried.

I just checked this and lostprophets are on Spotify now! Baffled

You're baffled? Watkins was just 1/5 of Lostprophets. The other 4 members, all talented individuals in their own right with both writing and performing credit, do not deserve to have whats left of their livelihoods removed.

This covers the main claims in the Look Away documentary. www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/16125545/look-away-steven-tyler-sex-abuse-rock/ It horrifies me that girls of 12, 13, 14 were hanging around clubs in Hollywood in the first place - now I guess we know the dangers much more, thanks to the bravery of those women in telling people who finally listened what happened to them.

Power corrupts - it's that simple. So 'stars', their managers, executives, basically anyone who has the power to make young people's dreams come true as musicians or models or actors or whatever, has power over that person. Alanis Morrisette has made a documentary that says she was raped by multiple men when she was 15. At the time, she felt it was consensual, but obviously it wasn't as she was a DC.

@EarthSight

Bowie didn't write the Labyrinth though? He literally just acted the part given so any deeper meaning you are finding can't really be attributed to him

This is why I don't listen to any "big" music. I only listen to small, local, humble musicians, at the level of some being my personal friends, who have sat round my kitchen table having a cup of tea. There's a wellspring of talent at this level. The entertainment industry is corrupt all the way through like a stick of rock, then powder coated with a thin veneer of sparkly glamour. Power corrupts, and I don't want to give any power/energy/attention/money to those in a system embroiled in committing atrocities.

I kissed a famous DJ on the lips when I was 13. I just feel "ick" about it now, unlike some of the women who slept with one of this DJ's colleagues at a similar age, and he was done for child sexual abuse. I do feel really groomed on a cultural level, I was a typical teenage girl who fancied DJs and boy band members and would totally have been a groupie given a dose more confidence.

@BudrosBudrosGalli

So glad that he is going down. Hope there is a queue to piss on him for a change! Luckily, I was never a fan of his music.

As for David Bowie, I cannot separate his predatory behaviour from his music and loathe how much he is celebrated. Wonder how he would have felt if it was his daughter!

I had no idea re Bowie

I feel sick !!!!

My ex had a position of power
Worshipped by colleagues
Abusing me and others

Awful how they are worshipped and believe they won't be found out

?Tom Jones in the 70s??What is this?

I'd hate any form of art to be subject to moral censorship.

One of my favourite fonts is Gill Sans, but Eric Gill was a proper pervy weirdo and no mistake (daughters, sisters, dog, etc...).

There's also the longstanding connection between Eric Gill and the BBC, with the Ariel and Prospero statues outside Broadcasting House. It's so institutionalised 😣

@AdobeWanKenobi

I just checked this and lostprophets are on Spotify now! Baffled

You're baffled? Watkins was just 1/5 of Lostprophets. The other 4 members, all talented individuals in their own right with both writing and performing credit, do not deserve to have whats left of their livelihoods removed.

I honestly felt so sorry for those guys, but I've never been able to listen to any of their music since.

@Duckswaddle

Re Ian Watkins, I refuse to believe his band mates knew nothing about it. My friend met them when he was young and very into the band and one of the band members told him not to get too close to Watkins because “he’ll do literally anything.” They definitely knew; if not the full extent of everything, they knew.

I often think they knew about the underage girls, because let's face it, they were often on the tour bus. I very much hope they had absolutely no idea about the babies and toddlers.

The one I'm always most conflicted about it John Lennon.

He was physically and emotionally abusive to his first wife and possessive and controlling towards Yoko.

I love the Beatles but I see him particularly in a different light.

@FlatCheese

Interesting that you picked Siemens in your OP as a company that wouldn't tolerate criminality. They're a company with a bit of a "past", I think.

Yep

"Siemens (at the time: Siemens-Schuckert) exploited the forced labour of deported people in extermination camps. The company owned a plant in Auschwitz concentration camp. They also exploited the forced labour of women in the concentration camp of Ravensbrück. The factory was located in front of the camp"

I'm conflicted as to whether songs should be banned because the artist behaved badly. Where do we draw the line? I agree that someone like Gary Glitter shouldn't be getting royalties and therefore the best thing is to never have his music played, but where's the cut-off?

Do we burn Oscar Wilde's works because he had sex with boys that would now be considered underage?

Pete Townshend, on the sex offenders' register but accepted by the police he was only accessing child porn for legitimate but massively misguided reasons?

@StarryNightSparkles

Sorry genuine question. What did David Bowie do?

This I think is whats been referred to www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/david-bowie-and-the-15-year-old-girls-7962946

It would make a huge difference if people started refusing to work with them. So many of these are known secrets in the industry, you can see years-old blind gossip items naming people once it's out in the open, yet so many will carry on because it furthers their career. Especially the despicable Woody Allen.

We have to separate the art from the artist. People are damaged and fragile, how it manifests is variable. If we retrospectively investigate artists lives, then censor their work because we don't approve of how they lived, there will be nothing left. However, we should absolutely demand all present day vultures keep their hands off our children and not make excuses for them. Penalties should be far more severe.

On the proposal to remove the Stations of the Cross sculpture by Eric Gill in Westminster Cathedral, Cardinal Basil Hume and Cathedral authorities did not deny Gill’s perverse lifestyle, but simply suggested that a "distinction should be made between his artistic skills and his private life".

Margaret Kennedy, coordinator of a London-based survivor's group, arranged a protest and prayer rally to pray for Gill's victims and all victims of sexual abuse. "What we object to is that people have to pray in front of a pedophile's art work," she said. "How can his work be seen as a focus of prayer? To us it seems as if incest is carved on every wall of the Cathedral"

Imagine being a faithful Catholic who's experienced sexual abuse in childhood, and having such artwork in your face during worship. Just think how much of an intensifier of the abuse memories that must be, seeing them during moments of spiritual intensity? That's why we must be thoughtful about to what degree we maintain the link between abusers and their works.

@HarrietsChariot Sorry but I don’t buy Pete Townsend’s “defence” and would strongly suspect that the police don’t either. You don’t go on the sex offenders register for nothing.

Don’t forget that there is a scene in “Tommy” where the young boy is taken into the bathroom by his uncle and sexually abused to a song called “Fiddle About”.

The song was written by John Entwistle, but it was Pete Townsend’s idea. I found this quote about the song: “When asked why he wrote the songs John replied: Pete said that there were two characters that he thought he himself couldn't do as good a job as me in describing. One was a homosexual uncle and the other was a cruel cousin, which were supposed to be two of Tommy's traumatic experiences, that and the acid queen.”

In criminal profiling they call that “leakage”, where the inner thoughts/desires spill out into the perpetrators every day life. See also Woody Allen and the number of “young girls with older men” themes in his films.

@longwayoff

We have to separate the art from the artist. People are damaged and fragile, how it manifests is variable. If we retrospectively investigate artists lives, then censor their work because we don't approve of how they lived, there will be nothing left. However, we should absolutely demand all present day vultures keep their hands off our children and not make excuses for them. Penalties should be far more severe.

I agree, for example you'd have to cancel Spandau Ballet/Bananarama/Alisonoyet/Imagination's major hits because of the involvement of their songwriter/producer collaborator.

"Songwriter and record producer Steven Jolley, arrested in connection with a child sex abuse inquiry, produced hits for major 1980s bands such as Spandau Ballet. The 52-year-old helped make Bananarama Britain's best selling girl band with a string of hits, including Robert De Niro's Waiting, Shy Boy and Cruel Summer. He produced their first three albums and Spandau Ballet's biggest selling number one single, True. He also co-wrote and helped produce the Alison Moyet hits All Cried Out and Love Resurrection and a series of other successes, including Body Talk, for Imagination. In partnership with Tony Swain, he worked on television's Muppet Show from 1975. But it was after the pair's Body Talk smash for Imagination that they emerged as a leading production team from 1982 to 1984. Jolley's career peaked commercially with 1983's True, a number 1 album (and title track single) in the UK for Spandau Ballet"

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-156262/Pop-hits-producer-arrested-child-sex-abuse-probe.html?ito=native_share_article-top

Given that Townsend's whole life has been spent privately and publicly trying to deal with his own abuse as a child, I am not so quick to damn him.

Tommy, many of his songs, Double 0, Lighthouse, the whole 'white knight' stupidity... all are based on his childhood experiences.

He is a very damaged individual and his money and fame haven't protected him from that!

I do feel really groomed on a cultural level
This is such a good way of putting it and as true today as it was in the 70s. The sexualisation of girls from a young age is shocking.

Then there’s the artist Paul Gauguin, who while living in Tahiti started a relationship with a 14 year old girl and had two children with her. His paintings still hang in galleries worldwide.

Some brilliant comments on the thread. It's very depressing though, it seems like pretty much everything is sullied by abusers.

I must reiterate though, I'm not calling for censorship. Just the ability to be free of being forced to listen in non-musical public spaces e.g. supermarkets and I dont extend that to nightclubs or music venues because then you have made a choice to expose yourself to music. If you are a YABU voter, I support your right to listen to what you want.

I just don't want to hear R Kelly crooning about shagging women when I'm buying ham.

I get that Townsend has his own issues to work through from his horrific personal experiences and I do sympathise, but the vast majority of victims of child sex abuse manage to do that without accessing child abuse images themselves.

He accepted the caution and placement on the sex offenders register, he will have had access to the best lawyers so if there was any way of avoiding that I’m sure they would have identified it. Not to mention the fact that he changed his story about why he accessed the images in the first place.