Horrible abusers in the music industry - R Kelly verdict [title edit by MNHQ]

[RickJames]

Well, R Kelly is off to jail. Thank goodness. He was evil! But he made some great music. Like Chris Brown, Michael Jackson and to a certain extent James Brown. Ike Turner, Phil Spector, Gary Glitter.. even David Bowie was after it in the 60's. Jon Bonham they were all at it. Either or both abuse of women and children. Even that chap from Kasabian beat his wife up. It seems to be a thing. Loads more examples possible.

AIBU to expect that despite the enjoyable music they created/ sang on they shouldn't be played on commercial/ public radio anymore. Maybe if we protested then (im not innocent, I know it would be purely for the money) record companies would insist on non-criminal behaviour. In much the same way that say, for example, Siemens or Haringey Council would as employers.

Part of me feels like the music should stand for its musical value. A larger part of me feels like 'this is why we can't have nice things' and we shouldn't tolerate any part of their legacies.

AIBU?

@CaveMum Laura Richards is wonderful. I like her other podcast, Crime Analyst, very much too - superb analysis of the misogyny in British policing.

Bill Wyman....
At least he was upfront about having a sexual relationship with an underage girl and he met her mother and got approval for the relationship. She met him in a night club when she was 13 and he was in his 40s. Plenty wrong with that statement on all levels.

Addition to the Wyman/Mandy Smith tale, Bill W's son, Stephen, married Mandy's mother, Patsy. Freudians, fill your boots. I'll refrain from further comment with regard to libel law.

@RickJames

I've asked MN to change the word perverts to abusers because, as a PP pointed out, its mixing up DV perpetrators with SA perpetrators and that could lead to misunderstanding.

Thanks.

I thought there may be something more behind it and that it had been wiped from internet searches. It would not have surprised me at all.

I simply do not care what crimes a musician committed so long as they are caught and doing their prison time. The prison and fines are their debt to society. If a Michael Jackson song we’re played, I’d care even less because he’s dead so it’s not like he’d accrue any benefit from his music being played, only his innocent children who own his estate.

Your words could apply here,

‘That’s fine as an individual choice, but you shouldn’t be imposing your choice on other people.’

My friend who was abused does care.

@Neveratruerfriend

Yes good news that R Kelly is going to get handed justice, but apparently the maximum sentence he can get is just 15 years

Why is it that sentences for sex offences are comparably so lenient. Thinking of all the lives he's ruined, if I had my way he would be locked up until death.

Maybe that's only the sentence for one particular count, neveratruerfriend, because other reports are suggesting the sentence (not due until next year) could total 100 years. He is also facing charges in other states that have yet to take place.

He was tried for viewing child pornography 13 years ago but found not guilty. Allegations against him go back years. That is where there is an overlap between high profile abusers and ones who are not famous. They always seem to have a history of abuse.

@RickJames

David Bowie (and his wife at the time), apparently, had a 14 year old girlfriend. It's fairly well documented although when I googled, some Internet scrubbing seems to have taken place.

He also went through a phase of keeping all his wee in the fridge but I suppose he was only hurting himself with this habit. I believe it was when he lived with Iggy Pop in Berlin.

Iggy's MN AIBU would have been fantastic- AIBU to think my flatmate shouldn't be using our fridge to store his wee?

I can't comment on that because I don't know enough about that particular situation, but I always thought that The Labyrinth was weird. I mean, I know he's meant to represent some kind of poster-idol, rock-star fantasy, trickster type figure for Sarah, the main character, but he's far, far too old even for that in that role! If you look at most teenage girl crushes, they're mostly boys the same age or young men in their early 20s.

I remember watching behind the scenes talk about the meaning of the film, that it's about Sarah maturing into a young woman......but I just felt bleurgh about it. It just seemed to be more about the 'coming of age', deflowering fantasies of thigh-rubbing, middle-aged men than it was about her. Hence why they cast Bowie, a 39 year old to be the forbidden crush figure of a 14 year old!! Whose fantasy are we talking about here?? :/

Not just the people, the lyrics - I remember taking dc at 4 or 5 into a shop where the radio was on a few years ago and hearing fuck fuck fuck fuck screamed out in some song on the radio - the lyrics of the song seemed to basically be "fuck fuck fuck". How many videos of naked women gyrating in a sexual way in front of some fully clad man, constantly on TV. I am fed up of the whole lot of it.

The original video of the classic "total eclipse of the heart" is a fully grown woman letching over a teenage school boy - how is that okay?

As for jimmy saville, well known visitor of children's homes, back then many 10 - 18 year olds taken into care because of poor behaviour - oh and what is happening now? we are at a ten year high of that age group being taken into care. to the land of rainbows and unicorns not.

@SuperstarDog

I simply do not care what crimes a musician committed so long as they are caught and doing their prison time. The prison and fines are their debt to society. If a Michael Jackson song we’re played, I’d care even less because he’s dead so it’s not like he’d accrue any benefit from his music being played, only his innocent children who own his estate.

Your words could apply here,

‘That’s fine as an individual choice, but you shouldn’t be imposing your choice on other people.’

My friend who was abused does care.

I’m not the one trying to ban/censor music/art/books out of existence though. So I’m not imposing anything at all.

Oh, and I am a survivor of abuse as well. We don’t all have the same opinion on things.

I had no interest in R. Kelly's music anyway, but my modest hope is that he is never permitted to make any more. I looked up Mike Tyson last night and was shocked at how his rape conviction and three years of incarceration were completely brushed off. He came out and went right back to boxing, and was inducted into numerous Halls of Fame right up until a few years ago. A convicted fucking rapist and nobody cares, even now.

Mike Tyson has also openly stated that the best punch he ever threw was the one that broke his then-wife's jaw. What a prince.

Someone who has done wrong, admits they've done wrong, and learns from it both via consequences (e.g., jail) and their subsequent actions (e.g., apologising, making changes to their behaviour, etc) is a different kettle of fish to those people who are totally unrepentant, who fail to see what they have done wrong, and who think it is their right to have done what they did. One deserves to be ousted, to lose their position of power/influence, and to no longer be a role model. The other possibly does not, depending on what they did.

It always astounds me though how quickly people will defend a man, how quickly they will say they separate the man from the work/the art from the artist, how quickly they will rail against the ruination of his career, and so on. Look at how the media treated (and still treats) Mike Tyson, a known domestic abusers and rapist, compared to how they treated someone like Caroline Flack when she was accused of assault. Look at how Angela Raynrt is being treated over her "scum" comments (she's mouthy, she needs to apologise, it's unacceptable, etc) compared to how Boris Johnson has been treated for his many offensive, racist, and homophobic remarks (hes saying what we're all thinking, he's telling it like it is, and in his own words he doesn't see why he should have to censor his language, etc). It all part of a culture where men can do what they like and women are viewed as lesser.

@Innocenta I agree, I only discovered her a few months ago, through the Crime Analyst podcast, and she’s definitely my new girl crush! I’d love @MNHQ to do a web chat with her on her work around domestic abuse and coercive control but I think she’s a bit tied up for now what with just having had a baby!

Another one who I've always thought was a bit strange and he's admitted it too - is Tommy Mottola who met Mariah Carey when she was just 18 and was influential in 'helping her career progress'.

blackbookmag.com/blackbook-2/tommy-mottola-describes-how-he-abused-mariah-carey-in-new-memoir/

I also think that proceeds from music of convicted sex attackers should be put towards rape crisis centres (or similar - as someone above said too). Same with movies. Once the art enters the public sphere, it forms part of our lives: songs we grow up to, movies we saw with someone special etc. If the recording studios knew that their future revenues could be hurt by having a sex offender on their books, because upon conviction ALL future revenues from his music worldwide and associated products would be immediately confiscated/become state property, they'd be less likely to pander to his behaviour.

And the people around these guys, the ones who get phone numbers for potential victims, who organise the victims meeting the perpetrator, well they should all be under investigation too. In war it's not enough for a soldier to say a/he was "following commands", so why is it ok to let people who aided and abetted horrific crimes off because they "might lose their job".

I also think that every single man convicted of rape should have a custodial sentence and
a significant financial penalty to the state which is put directly into support services for victims over their lifetimes. A rape when you're 18 can appear to be "resolved" after some counselling and then BAM you're pregnant in your 30s and need more help to deal with rape + birth issues.

Not enough men are ever convicted of rape for it to fund what's actually needed, but it would certainly help.

I’m not the one trying to ban/censor music/art/books out of existence though. So I’m not imposing anything at all.

Oh, and I am a survivor of abuse as well. We don’t all have the same opinion on things.

Playing MJ at a school play was absolutely imposing it on my friend.
Its best to not play it in public places or on the radio. Individuals can then choose to play it or avoid it, as you say we all have different opinions and this makes it available to those who want to listen without upsetting people who don’t.

I'm surprised John Lennon hasn't been , no idea why that guy is celebrated so much

mentioned**

I always thought that The Labyrinth was weird. I mean, I know he's meant to represent some kind of poster-idol, rock-star fantasy, trickster type figure for Sarah, the main character, but he's far, far too old even for that in that role! If you look at most teenage girl crushes, they're mostly boys the same age or young men in their early 20s.

I and a few of my friends had crushes on Tom Cruise around that age or a bit younger, back in the '90s when he was in Mission Impossible, Interview With The Vampire etc. I didn't think we were that unusual? I remember the teen magazines often having posters of him too.

Re Ian Watkins, I refuse to believe his band mates knew nothing about it. My friend met them when he was young and very into the band and one of the band members told him not to get too close to Watkins because “he’ll do literally anything.” They definitely knew; if not the full extent of everything, they knew.

Don't let's forget Gavin Rossdale and his creepiness and perverted behaviour in general around minor teenage girls... The Voice 2017 with Gavin was really creepy to see him leer and letch over the teenage girl contestants.

Interesting that you picked Siemens in your OP as a company that wouldn't tolerate criminality. They're a company with a bit of a "past", I think.

I've been wondering this. Not a huge r Kelly fan but I like ignition but bump and grind makes me cringe especially now I know what he was thinking of. Lostprophets you can't even get on Spotify but I threw my cd in the bin after it came out about Ian Watkins. Loved their music and I felt sorry for the other members of the band whose hard work it was too. But I just couldn't listen to his voice. You can still get r Kelly on Spotify but I am wondering if we will hear his music less now.

I think part of the problem is that their money and status means they are surrounded by people who facilitate them.
The Hangers on want to stay close so they provide these perverts with whatever they want.
I call it The Bubbles effect, nobody says no to them.
MJ “ I think it might be fun to get a chimpanzee as a pet” of course Michael let me get you one
Most people “I think it might be fun to get a chimpanzee as a pet” that’s a stupid idea, get a fish.

This is on the BBC news website today - Sophie Ellis Bextor, raped at the age of 17 by an older musician. Absolutely awful.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58705186

@daretodenim

I also think that proceeds from music of convicted sex attackers should be put towards rape crisis centres (or similar - as someone above said too). Same with movies. Once the art enters the public sphere, it forms part of our lives: songs we grow up to, movies we saw with someone special etc. If the recording studios knew that their future revenues could be hurt by having a sex offender on their books, because upon conviction ALL future revenues from his music worldwide and associated products would be immediately confiscated/become state property, they'd be less likely to pander to his behaviour.

And the people around these guys, the ones who get phone numbers for potential victims, who organise the victims meeting the perpetrator, well they should all be under investigation too. In war it's not enough for a soldier to say a/he was "following commands", so why is it ok to let people who aided and abetted horrific crimes off because they "might lose their job".

I also think that every single man convicted of rape should have a custodial sentence and
a significant financial penalty to the state which is put directly into support services for victims over their lifetimes. A rape when you're 18 can appear to be "resolved" after some counselling and then BAM you're pregnant in your 30s and need more help to deal with rape + birth issues.

Not enough men are ever convicted of rape for it to fund what's actually needed, but it would certainly help.

I like this idea a lot. Confiscate the royalties of offenders. At least then if the victim does hear the song unexpectedly, she can have the reassurance that by it being played, her abuser suffers financially, while another woman or child in need gets the resources they need for their trauma.

@Myusernameisnotmyusernameno

I've been wondering this. Not a huge r Kelly fan but I like ignition but bump and grind makes me cringe especially now I know what he was thinking of. Lostprophets you can't even get on Spotify but I threw my cd in the bin after it came out about Ian Watkins. Loved their music and I felt sorry for the other members of the band whose hard work it was too. But I just couldn't listen to his voice. You can still get r Kelly on Spotify but I am wondering if we will hear his music less now.

I just checked this and lostprophets are on Spotify now! Baffled