To support Kier Starmer’s school policy even though I would usually vote Blue…

[Blankspace4]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

(Original article I read was on the BBC but they seem to have merged it in to another about general tax policy now)

I haven’t voted Labour at any point during my working life and in general am in favour of a meritocracy, free market, and low regulation

However this policy has touched a nerve, in a good way. I think it’s astounding private schools remain ‘charities’ and don’t pay tax. If parents can afford to send their children to private school, I’ve no real issue with it, but let them pay an additional 20% to properly contribute in line with their privilege.

Of course there is the counter argument that private school families already pay tax and therefore are funding schooling their own kids aren’t using.

But still, on balance I’m supportive.

What does everyone think?

The UK's private education system is world renowned for its education and apolitical teaching. Approx 1 in 5 pupils at independent schools have parents who live abroad or are foreigners based in the UK. It is one of the UK's best examples of "soft power". In no way should it be scrapped.

Having said that I totally agree that the schools are businesses and should be treated that way for tax. They should be banned from charitable status, and fees should be subject to standard VAT (possibly with an exception for SEN).

6% of children are privately educated, but 14% of teachers work in the private sector, and the private sector accounts for 16% of education spending.

Having said that I totally agree that the schools are businesses and should be treated that way for tax. They should be banned from charitable status, and fees should be subject to standard VAT (possibly with an exception for SEN).*

^I agree with this. It’s always been ridiculous, private schools being treated as charities, they’re clearly not. I do get the practical problems with changing this, though.

IME bursaries and scholarships are 2 very different things. Bursaries are means tested and up to 100% of fees, the parents wouldn't be able to afford it normally. Scholarships are not means tested and awarded on talent - academic/music/sport etc. There is a separate trust fund for these at my DCs school so I don't think they would be affected if they were doing worse financially however it may be affected if it was linked in some way to their charitable status.

I think they should pay tax on the education side of things between the hours of 9 and 3. But anything after that, sports etc, wrap around care should be taxed. Why should I be taxed to send my kids to swimming lessons and they not be?

Apart from anything else it still remarkable that parents who can afford private school view themselves as some sort of squeezed middle

They normally are the squeezed middle because they are normally paying for via family money not their own!

All these people saying, I couldn’t afford it and the school would go bust!
Why on Earth should the U.K. tax payer prop up failing businesses.

It’s a well known fact that taking all the middle class kids away from standard schools means the school goes down, it’s not just about money.

Also, fuck off with the argument “I don’t take tax payers money for schools” and I pay tax for schools and I don’t use them.

I pay tax for a fuck tonne of stuff I don’t need or use.

My friends parents “run” a school
They are fucking insanely rich. And the level of help they get as a charity is fucking disgusting.

We are basically paying for wealthy people who own and run schools that prop up elitist ideals to make a HUGE Profit

@Limejuiceandrum

My friends parents “run” a school They are fucking insanely rich. And the level of help they get as a charity is fucking disgusting.

We are basically paying for wealthy people who own and run schools that prop up elitist ideals to make a HUGE Profit

Does the school make a profit? How does that work with not for profit

@MarshaBradyo
You know charities are allowed to make a profit for whoever owns them!

I had no idea that private schools got free money from the government!

Caveat: SPECIAL NEEDS private schools

Divisory politics of envy from the left as usual.

Parents who pay for private schools are also tax payers. They contribute towards state schools without ever using them.

[quote Limejuiceandrum]@MarshaBradyo
You know charities are allowed to make a profit for whoever owns them![/quote]
I don’t know the regulatory rules but on a quick google

Profit
Charities can make a profit or surplus. But all the surplus funds have to go back to the charity. Similarly, charities can and do invest their money in order to generate a return. But that return can only go back to the charity to spend on its cause.

Charities can pay board members, pay for good and services (land is a prime one for schools) buildings, you also can make a profit over a certain amount, though you will have to pay some tax on that.

It’s really not as simple as “oh I want to help kids, let’s set up a school, but no thanks I don’t need to make any money from it”

@movingonupagain

I had no idea that private schools got free money from the government!

Caveat: SPECIAL NEEDS private schools

Private school I know takes SEN boarders. The local authority of the child pays. It's impressive how children that would have had little chance in the state system blossom, but it's not cheap

As parents privately educating children, you are already paying tax for a service which you don't use.

I hate this argument. The whole of society benefits from having a high level of education. Without state education for the vast majority of people, the country would be ruined. Just imagine of 93% of people were uneducated - shops, factories, hospitals, everything would fail. There would be no electricity, gas, water or other basics as the people running those utilities on the ground all need a certain level of education.

And to claim that most people who send their children to private school aren't rich is also laughable. If you put two children through private education you are talking about £30k per year AFTER tax just on school fees. That's pretty rich.

YABU for calling yours a Blue vote. It’s not more palatable than Tory.

Daft idea.

The elite for whom 20% fee hikes make no difference will continue to use them, meaning the gap between state and private will widen even further.

It will push the middle class back into an already stretched state system, but won't even level the playing field for the less well off as the MC will just use their money to buy in tutors and extra curricular activities and improve their children's education that way.

At least at the moment, when it comes to university applications, you can see which children have benefitted from private education and adjust accordingly in the way Oxford are starting to positively discriminate against private pupils. If we take this path you'll no longer be able to tell who was a state school pupil and who was a state school pupil with huge extra benefits.

It's just typical Labour: it's unfair that some kids are benefitting from a private education which is superior to state school education. Should we improve state school provision? No, let's take away private provision for all but the richest so everyone has it shit and it's fair for everyone🤦🏻

And to claim that most people who send their children to private school aren't rich is also laughable. If you put two children through private education you are talking about £30k per year AFTER tax just on school fees. That's pretty rich.

YES. Thank you. MN does me laugh sometimes with the 'but we can barely afford private school bollocks. It's a choice!

Exactly! If you can afford to put kids through private school you are rich. Whether or not you 'feel' rich is a separate issue but they're not the 'squeezed middle'.

It’s true that a 20% fee hike would stimulate some parents to make a different choice.

Would it be enough children to make a noticeable difference in state schools? Who can say?

I do think this policy is less about raising funds, and more about signalling values.

If we started charging vat we could reclaim it on purchases also.

A well performing school would make around 8% net profit so fees would only have to increase to cover the marginal cost.

During the first wave of the pandemic we made financial assistance available to all who needed. Only 20 families applied. 5 the following term. After that zero.

Independent school is now so expensive that there aren’t many who have the luxury of making ‘sacrifices’ to send their children to independent school.

We have several families with three children at the school - nearly £60k a year in fees alone. Those are not families who are struggling.

@AmericanTie

Most bursaries go to parents who would have used the school anyway: it's just a little discount. It's not like private schools are there hauling ragamuffin orphans out of poverty with those schemes.

You're confusing bursaries with scholarships.

I entirely agree with you @Blankspace4. Why would anyone would think it’s in any way fair that taxpayers should subsidise the parents of 7% of children to buy privilege for them? It should have been stopped decades ago.

I don’t know why people think it’s unbelievable that a family could be paying say £2500 a month for 2 children to go to a private school, and that suddenly having to pay an extra £500 a month would present a difficulty. Going to a private school doesn’t immediately confer a family with unlimited money, in fact it eats up so much of your money!

It is envy politics as someone has said upthread. When the National Insurance increase was announced their was horror that some lower-earning families would have to pay an extra £10 per month. However the same people think it’s just water off a duck’s back for more well-off people already paying high fees and high taxes to pay hundreds of pounds extra every month - and that’s in addition to the £1000+ extra NI they’ll be paying a year.

Everyone but the super-rich has limits to what they have available to spend. There are many people at private schools who spend all the money they earn every month (or close to it) and 20% on top would push them over the edge financially.