To support Kier Starmer’s school policy even though I would usually vote Blue…

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www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

(Original article I read was on the BBC but they seem to have merged it in to another about general tax policy now)

I haven’t voted Labour at any point during my working life and in general am in favour of a meritocracy, free market, and low regulation

However this policy has touched a nerve, in a good way. I think it’s astounding private schools remain ‘charities’ and don’t pay tax. If parents can afford to send their children to private school, I’ve no real issue with it, but let them pay an additional 20% to properly contribute in line with their privilege.

Of course there is the counter argument that private school families already pay tax and therefore are funding schooling their own kids aren’t using.

But still, on balance I’m supportive.

What does everyone think?

I don’t know about cash reserves but a quick google

Independent schools are commonly operated as not-for-profit entities (most are registered charities), and the majority have limited cash reserves.

Prior to the Covid-19 pandemic, many independent schools were already facing financial challenges. Competition between independent schools and from top-performing state schools has made it more difficult for some private schools to attract viable numbers of students, while rising operational costs have put pressure on cash flow.

It goes on..

I’m wondering why given above most independent wouldn’t just pass higher cost to fee payer therefore taking some out of system into state

People who are sending their children to private school are in the income bracket already paying the vast majority of the income tax paid in this country. They will, if you want to think about it this way, be paying for multiple (dozens?) of state school places for the children of other people who are paying next to no tax themselves. They are then not taking up any of these “free” school places themselves and instead are paying tens of thousands of pounds a year sending their children to private schools.

A lot of these families can only just afford to do this - they are not by any means mostly really rich people. They are just normal people who want to and can manage to do this. I think that policies like these are just trying to demonise people who send their children to private schools and are totally unfair.

The result will be that lots of people will not be able to afford to send their children in private schools and the hypothetical Labour government will have to find starts school places for all those children, putting massive pressure and the already over-full schools.

I couldn't vote for this policy because it would effectively end the military CEA policy (no way Defence can afford another 20% on the bill) and would impact a lot of military children who attend private schools to enable them to have continuity of education while their service parent moves around postings.

We sent DD to prep school and I agree with you OP. Raise fees, or delay the newest swimming pool. The one I sent DD to didn't seem strapped for cash, a couple of years ago they built the headmistress a new house up the road (the old lodgings were attached to the school so it created some new classrooms) which would be worth around £1.2m completed. Not to mention the new sports block and swimming pool all built whilst she attended. Not that I'm complaining, but calling them a charity is fucking ludicrous unless they're giving out some serious scholarships. To be honest I wish there was just adequate schooling for all kids and that independent schools disappeared entirely.

I agree that schooling should be adequate for all and there should be no independent schools at all with the exception of boarding schools which are necessary for a variety of reasons.

I'm a single parent and I just about manage to send mine to a private all girls school. I am also in the bracket that pays a lot of tax.

Her school does not make a massive profit, it goes into maintaining small class sizes which is essential for kids with certain SEN which my daughter has.

It's all irrelevant anyway, the LP will never get back in, they are destroying themselves with identity politics.

Well they can pay it but will bursaries scholarship's suffer.

Friends who are childless argue that they should pay less tax because they don't need the education system.

Most bursaries go to parents who would have used the school anyway: it's just a little discount. It's not like private schools are there hauling ragamuffin orphans out of poverty with those schemes.

@justasking111 I am childless as well (not by choice) but it’s rather short sighted to think if you don’t have kids you shouldn’t contribute towards education. Presumably they would still expect there to be doctors to look after them in the future etc etc

@AmericanTie

Most bursaries go to parents who would have used the school anyway: it's just a little discount. It's not like private schools are there hauling ragamuffin orphans out of poverty with those schemes.

Scholarships are smaller but bursaries are up to over 100%

Yes some students will have access to something they could not. I’m fact all are means tested

Not just doctors, although I take your point. I don't think anyone would want to grow up in a country populated by uneducated people.

Sorry, would want to live in a country populated by uneducated people

This isn't well thought out as a policy, what a suprise from Labour. I really don't understand why they just spout this stuff and don't seem to think about the consequences. Knowing Labour there is no guarantee that this money would go to the schools that need it anyway. Politics of envy.

The first step needs to be improving and levelling up the state system. The difference in provision is shocking and very unfair.

IMO private schools would not start decomissioning swimming pools or stopping development projects. They would raise fees (in my experience) but poss not by the 20%. The fall out would be many leaving the system and joining the state system. Many would do this by buying property in the catchments of outstanding state secondaries. They would then buy extra support through tutors, music lessons etc that they used to do in school at the private school. These things would then harder to come by and more expensive. The parents who struggled ot pay for these things would then be priced out, they also probably wouldn't even be able to afford to live in the catchment. You will then see an increasing gap in quality of provision within the state sector increasing the disadvantage to the already struggling pupils.

It is a lie to say that all bursaries are means tested. I know first hand that they absolutey not. I think people think that bursaries go to the those really bright/sporty children from very disadvantaged backgrounds and again, in my experience, they go to lower middle class parents who can't afford the fees but are very pushy.

Charitable status for non SEN schools should be removed, phased in over time so they can plan accordingly.

And don’t get me started on their bloody bursaries; the terms of a lot of them mean that they just offer a discount to kids who would likely go anyway and are seemingly already in a privileged position. As far as I can tell, they just do it to attract talented kids that will improve their academic/sports/music results.
Eg bursaries for some private schools here are 5% discount if you fulfil various sporting criteria. Pretty sure the kids who get this are from the prep schools that focus on these sports in school and have parents already investing heavily in their kids doing lots of sports and being ferried to various competitions. Not your working class kid who might be naturally gifted at running say, but hasn’t been entered into lots of competitions by school or parents.

@2021Vision

It is a lie to say that all bursaries are means tested. I know first hand that they absolutey not. I think people think that bursaries go to the those really bright/sporty children from very disadvantaged backgrounds and again, in my experience, they go to lower middle class parents who can't afford the fees but are very pushy.

Can you back this up?

Which schools do this specifically

@OnceUponARainbow

Charitable status for non SEN schools should be removed, phased in over time so they can plan accordingly.

And don’t get me started on their bloody bursaries; the terms of a lot of them mean that they just offer a discount to kids who would likely go anyway and are seemingly already in a privileged position. As far as I can tell, they just do it to attract talented kids that will improve their academic/sports/music results.
Eg bursaries for some private schools here are 5% discount if you fulfil various sporting criteria. Pretty sure the kids who get this are from the prep schools that focus on these sports in school and have parents already investing heavily in their kids doing lots of sports and being ferried to various competitions. Not your working class kid who might be naturally gifted at running say, but hasn’t been entered into lots of competitions by school or parents.

5%? Are you sure you don’t mean scholarships?

@MarshaBradyo you are right, that is for scholarships rather than bursaries. But again, not sure that this widens their applicant pool, just helps them attract already top performing kids with discounts upto 5%.

My DD had a scholarship and bursary to a very well known school. We did not have to provide any financial information, we would not have qualified for the bursary if we had. They were buying in talent.

A nephew had a bursary to a private school. His parents would not have been able to afford the fees but are comfortable, think own house in expensive area, 2 cars etc.

Sorry but these bursaries are not going to the poorest. The schools buy in talent/results and want an easy fit.

@2021Vision

My DD had a scholarship and bursary to a very well known school. We did not have to provide any financial information, we would not have qualified for the bursary if we had. They were buying in talent.

A nephew had a bursary to a private school. His parents would not have been able to afford the fees but are comfortable, think own house in expensive area, 2 cars etc.

Sorry but these bursaries are not going to the poorest. The schools buy in talent/results and want an easy fit.

A bursary without providing financial information is unusual

Which school or area even?

I do agree though that mainstream private and public schools can convey a huge, unfair advantage. Where I work the British people in the top jobs are almost all privately educated. Funnily enough a lot of the Dutch, German, Swedish etc are not.

The note about forces children and children who need SEN provision but would not "qualify" for a specialist school should also be taken into account. These children need to be planned for

I know it is Marsha however honestly it's true. Sorry but I cannot name the schools, I guess that's what is difficult about forums, you don't know if I am telling the truth, but I can assure you I am.

It is similar in a way to Oxbridge are now evidently widening access. The reality is that the places are going to grammar schools whose pupils have more often than not 'bought' their place through tutoring and a priviledged home life. What are Labour doing about improving this access?

You can set criteria however you like however parents will still be pushy and establishments will remain in control of access.

I have one in state and one in private. I'd rather see all private schools be abolished and all the private parents help lobby for better state provisions rather than see the fees go up. Just why should private schools 'help' state schools funding? Unless they are being run for profit - which most are not.

Do they advertise bursaries as non means tested on their website?

Or is it under the counter so to speak

It sounds scandalous to me - in the sense it’s enough for a story in a paper / Panorama type thing if they were to get hold of bursaries with no financial info at a well known school.

Grammar schools I get as they are still state and it’s broadening to that sector even if unpalatable

A bursary without providing financial information aimed to attract the brightest is a scholarship. We have to differentiate between the two in the accounts as one provides a public benefit snd the other doesn’t.